Best UK defense for Sealion 3 or 4 collaboration

[Jennifer]

It is not relevant, you would not need 52 ground units to take England, but you COULD get them there if you needed.  So Sea Lion is possible, and that’s all the discussion was asking for.  I still hold to my claim that 2 submarines > Sea Lion.  You negate their income and you lose nothing for Germany. (Loss of 8 IPC a round for Scotland/England is far less than spending 84 IPC on ships, losing 2 or 3 planes to AA Gun fire and losing all those ground units in the attack.)

[jim010]

Didn’t we go through this with odds and all?  Why are we here again?  G3 with this defense is dumb, and G4’s counter is a UK3 hit and fade attack.  Both G3 and G4 are now worse off.  And that is probably a good thing.

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

[JimmyHat]

I know, I merely made an observation based on rereading this thread and our moderator Jenn comes on here with some nonsense about Alpha3.  Hence why I then posted a ‘please’ remove your posts because they are irrelavant, and now we have an extra page of posts about nothing.  I do wish we had written out the moves for those people without that application.

[Jennifer]

@jim010:

Didn’t we go through this with odds and all?  Why are we here again?  G3 with this defense is dumb, and G4’s counter is a UK3 hit and fade attack.  Both G3 and G4 are now worse off.  And that is probably a good thing.

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

Correct it has, and it has been determined by a few games on the matter that a hit and fade attack by London saps London of it’s strength making an attack on London more profitable.  So a G4 attack on London is not assured, but it has far superior odds of success than a G3 attack, given the new situation on the board.

Then again, I always though Sea Lion was stupid early in the game and I continue to think as such.  It saps too much from the Germans making Russia nearly impossible to beat.  If Germany, Italy and Japan focus on Russia, they almost certainly have better odds than an Alpha 3 Sea Lion attempt prior to the  start of Round 5. (Round 5 to include a G4 attempt.)

[dutchmand]

Great work guys.  I can tell you guys love to strategize and run the numbers. I am new to G40 and was somewhat surprised to see how likely a Sea Lion is in the Alpha +2 set-up.  However, I noticed you guys making mention of how it is not the end of the game but just the beginning.  Also, someone posted a comment about how they sometimes bait the Axis into a Sea Lion because of how far it sets them back on the Eastern Front….

What is the best way to counter/deal with a Sea Lion on G3 when the UK does not turtle on UK1, but gets a little aggressive with their fighters (going after the Italians)?  Do they build all in England still on a UK2 or do they build units in S Af and/or Quebec?

Take a look at the map  attached as an example.  What are you collective opinions on how the UK should spend their money on UK2 when a G3 take on London is certain?

Nonturtle_UKvSeaLion.AAM

[JamesAleman]

@DutchmanD:

Great work guys.  I can tell you guys love to strategize and run the numbers. I am new to G40 and was somewhat surprised to see how likely a Sea Lion is in the Alpha +2 set-up.  However, I noticed you guys making mention of how it is not the end of the game but just the beginning.  Also, someone posted a comment about how they sometimes bait the Axis into a Sea Lion because of how far it sets them back on the Eastern Front….

What is the best way to counter/deal with a Sea Lion on G3 when the UK does not turtle on UK1, but gets a little aggressive with their fighters (going after the Italians)?  Do they build all in England still on a UK2 or do they build units in S Af and/or Quebec?

Take a look at the map  attached as an example.  What are you collective opinions on how the UK should spend their money on UK2 when a G3 take on London is certain?

Even if you build all infantry, UK should fall in that map. I would therefor pull my air units out of UK. One could clear that Italian transport and land with the 3 French in Algeria. Have the French fighter land on a newly built carrier and transport in z106(Canada) to meet up with the UK fighter,DD,BB, and CA. This makes the 3 sub attack not worth it for Germany. That fleet will reduce the IPCs the US will have to spend on that board. I’d set up the US for going to war once UK falls. They will want some navy in the Atlantic to help UK deploy forward to harass with its 2 transports. In south Africa: 33-23=10 IPcs for 2 inf and an artillery, or a Mech and Armor.

Since taking UK will cause war, Japan can hit the US: (You can also clear UK and Anzac units as well and deny them their war NOs if able)
I don’t think Japan should have moved its carriers off of a naval base, to recover (since they didn’t leave 2 blocking DDs in z6) I’d build 1 DD and 2 carriers in z6-bait an attack and use your Kamikazes-you’ll need them to replace those lost at Hawaii if they hit there instead , move the z36 fleet to Philippines, take with 3 transports. Move the carrier fleet and Caroline fleets to Hawaii as bate, take with 1 transport. Redeploy air force for a counter attack on a US fleet in z6 if they ignore Hawaii. Its not where I would want Japan, but its not bad.

Just my early thoughts.

[Jennifer]

Keep in mind, they have determined you can prevent England from falling (in Alpha 2) with a full turtle option.  That is almost as good as winning against England in my book. (Fine, in my book it is better than winning because I think Sea Lion is probably the least productive strat for the axis…)

[JimmyHat]

@DutchmanD:

Great work guys.  I can tell you guys love to strategize and run the numbers. I am new to G40 and was somewhat surprised to see how likely a Sea Lion is in the Alpha +2 set-up.  However, I noticed you guys making mention of how it is not the end of the game but just the beginning.  Also, someone posted a comment about how they sometimes bait the Axis into a Sea Lion because of how far it sets them back on the Eastern Front….

What is the best way to counter/deal with a Sea Lion on G3 when the UK does not turtle on UK1, but gets a little aggressive with their fighters (going after the Italians)?  Do they build all in England still on a UK2 or do they build units in S Af and/or Quebec?

Take a look at the map  attached as an example.  What are you collective opinions on how the UK should spend their money on UK2 when a G3 take on London is certain?

I agree with James.  If UK cannot be held then why try.  Another option might be to build 3 units in Saf.  3 expensive units that will help hold India and then can be used in the defense of Russia.  I am thinking 3 ftrs.

It appears that you’re UK turtle was compromised by the Taranto raid.  Is it better to kill half the Italian navy or save your capital?  Also the only way to properly turtle means bringing ships/aircraft/ and troops from Egypt back to London.

[dutchmand]

I agree with all those comments.  The UK cannot turtle if it pull units off.  However, I guess I’m looking for a consensus on how best to spend the UK $ in a non turtle.  Dump all $ in UK to make it painful for the Germans, or just build off-site.  Sounds like you guys believe building out of one of the other factories is better.

There is no clever way to sink all the German tnps that I see… that would be nice.

It’s not my map, but I think it is representative of a game where the UK gets very agressive (Taranto & Trobruk) and does not turtle.  I hate the fact that UK has to turtle at the beginning of the game and let the pastaheads run rampant.

Any other feedback on the UK2 options?

[JimmyHat]

Ah, but it’s 1940, spring in fact.  Italy hasn’t even entered the war.  When Italy did come in they started the offensive in Africa, not the British.  Are you saying you prefer a non-historical game where UK actually gets the opportunity to first strike Italy?

I cannot see your map, but what are your americans up to?  Did they spend the first turn going Pacific or Atlantic?  I would have UK help which ever theater USA is going.  If Pacific then perhaps the aircraft buy in Saf, if Atlantic then the ships in Canada.

[Jennifer]

Assuming you want to entice the Germans to invade England but you don’t want them to get it cheap.  I would recommend round 1 all infantry.  Round 2, armor in S. Africa and what you have left in planes.  Moving your units back to England will ensure that Germany assumes it has to kill 7 or 8 fighters (including the French one) and those infantry and (A+3) AA Guns so they will have to spend more.  It entices them because they see you not turtling and figure it’s now cheaper (and it is) than it was with higher chances of success (and they are.)  Right before the attack, fly your planes out to Africa.  FWA is probably the only logical choice if Germany is swimming in Transports.

[dutchmand]

@JimmyHat:

Ah, but it’s 1940, spring in fact.  Italy hasn’t even entered the war.  When Italy did come in they started the offensive in Africa, not the British.  Are you saying you prefer a non-historical game where UK actually gets the opportunity to first strike Italy?

I cannot see your map, but what are your americans up to?  Did they spend the first turn going Pacific or Atlantic?  I would have UK help which ever theater USA is going.  If Pacific then perhaps the aircraft buy in Saf, if Atlantic then the ships in Canada.

Oh, this is no more ahistoric than Italy being able to take Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and the rest of the Mediteranean when they could even beat the Greek army with their entire military. Not to mention one of the most significant ahistorical flaws of G40, which is that the French troops in North Africa remain loyal to the Allies for some reason, not Axis Vichy…  and, if they are not at war, why are they killing Brits mercilessly on Italy 1? Don’t get me started on the whole “orginally owned” territory nonesense either, the Germans can buld a major IC in Norway and the UK can build one in Malaya, but the Japanses cannot build one in Shanghai; the Japanese were the first to build factories in Shanghai around 1900 after the First Sino-Japanese War, and by 1937, when they fully officially occupied the city, it had more manufacturing power than the rest of Southeast Asia combined!  Dice Gods forbid the Japs actually being able to make a major IC in an actual manufacturing center that they originally created        :wink:

Ahistoric… hmpf!  Nothing like an instant 10 tnps build by the Germans and the dissappearance of essentially the entire Royal Navy in the Spring of 1940 to make you give up on all the historical aspects of the game we love…

The Americans built all Pacific. But will now build to take back UK and to put the Germans on the defensive.

[jim010]

First of all, I’m surprised to see a UK BB alive and well.

UK is certain to fall, so maybe buy fleet out of Canada to continue to maintain dominance in the Atlantic despite the loss of UK?

There is too little in UK in your map to really hurt the Germans, even with a solid 10 ground unit buy.  But if you do buy 10 units, Germany will suffer about 15 casualties.  Less than half that if you put nothing more there this turn.

I have only lost 1 game where I did a G3.  In all games where UK was abandoned in favour of the UK hitting hard elsewhere, I have won.

Alpha 3 looks to have thrown a wrench into all that.

@DutchmanD:

Great work guys.  I can tell you guys love to strategize and run the numbers. I am new to G40 and was somewhat surprised to see how likely a Sea Lion is in the Alpha +2 set-up.  However, I noticed you guys making mention of how it is not the end of the game but just the beginning.  Also, someone posted a comment about how they sometimes bait the Axis into a Sea Lion because of how far it sets them back on the Eastern Front….

What is the best way to counter/deal with a Sea Lion on G3 when the UK does not turtle on UK1, but gets a little aggressive with their fighters (going after the Italians)?  Do they build all in England still on a UK2 or do they build units in S Af and/or Quebec?

Take a look at the map  attached as an example.  What are you collective opinions on how the UK should spend their money on UK2 when a G3 take on London is certain?

[Jennifer]

Jim,

I sometimes leave a BB alive in SZ 110 because I want that transport in SZ 109.  Just saying.

[JamesAleman]

@DutchmanD:

I agree with all those comments.  The UK cannot turtle if it pull units off.  However, I guess I’m looking for a consensus on how best to spend the UK $ in a non turtle.  Dump all $ in UK to make it painful for the Germans, or just build off-site.  Sounds like you guys believe building out of one of the other factories is better.

There is no clever way to sink all the German tnps that I see… that would be nice.

It’s not my map, but I think it is representative of a game where the UK gets very aggressive (Taranto & Trobruk) and does not turtle.  I hate the fact that UK has to turtle at the beginning of the game and let the pastaheads run rampant.

Any other feedback on the UK2 options?

If I use my surrender London concept, I build 2 transports, 1 art in South Africa, use the starting transport in z98 to get free men in Persia. This gives me 3 transports that can land on Egy turn 2 with 5 more units. I’ll pull the air craft from Gibraltar,Malta,z98 to Egypt.

There are two paths to take with the 18 IPCs left. Either a carrier, and pull the air force including France out of London and land on the carrier, in z106 or on the carrier in z92 (if you pull the Med fleet to z92 and stack on Algeria to prevent a landing site for German air force…This gives your whole air force and navy able to pounce on Italy turn 2…plus the 3 transports in Egypt staged for a pounce on S.Italy.

Option 2( less aggression): keep the air in London turn 1, build 6 infantry and make a turn 2 Sea lion dicey…depends on how much Germany loses air wise on turn 1.

With this strategy, you want US in position (in the Atlantic) to exploit this early DOW, or Pacific placements that permit an assault on Japan. India and Anzac will want to DOW for the war NO boost…not saying this is optimum, just aggressive. In fact, Germany may want to wait a turn before taking.

If they wait, just plop out more carriers, and units in S.Africa until they take you.

Here is a map for maximum(using India) aggression: you give up London, but trade it for Italy…note: India will turtle, and I use there assets against Italy, including the optional transport z39(India). This gives 9 air units and a navy against z98 (suicide zone if Italy sends a transport there). It pins the Italian navy in its port, or they die. If Italy fails to surrender a transport to close the straight, you will have a navy of: 3 crusiers, 3 dd, 5 transports, and a carrier with 9 planes (some can stage in Malta) for a turn 3 sinking of the Italian navy or capture of Rome/greece, etc. Egypt will have a land force on after turn 2 of: 9inf, 4art, mech, arm. In fact, if you keep the Med navy in Malta(with 2 planes and 3 scrambled-1 french), and the Indian navy in z81(south Egypt sea zone), you can hold both sides of the canal with the land force and air force, and spring on Italy turn 3.

Note the German’s are in their default turn 1 positions, I just moved ships to show what UK assets would be gone. Only India and UK have placed units, and I didn’t bother placing the carrier in z106…not sure whats in there, 1 or 2 subs. You could trade it for 1 less artillery in South Africa, to have it in z81 turn 2.

Italy conceptual turn 1.AAM
Italy conceptual turn 2.AAM

[JamesAleman]

This map, shows the air force on Malta, to strike the Italian navy turn 3. The 5 planes in the water are for the scramble/carrier ease of viewing…

Italy conceptual turn 2.AAM

[JamesAleman]

Actually, I like the carrier in z81 instead of the extra artillery:

Now UK can land 10 units and 4 planes on Italy turn 3, forcing Italy to block z98(oops, they can’t the French dd and ftr will clear) with a surface vessel, making the fleet weaker. Turn 3: Italy has 2 builds, 10 + 15 typically =25, Germany if they had Yugo, can have an airbase, so can Italy….so they could scramble 9 planes under those conditions…(if they go that route) it will be: UK 2dd, 3ca, 2cv, 2tac, 7ftr vs Italy (assumes they lose 2 units clearing French and UK destroyter turn 1 and block z98: 2dd,2ca,BB, 7ftr, 2tac.

Italy and Germany will lose.

[dutchmand]

@JamesAleman:

If I use my surrender London concept, I build 2 transports, 1 art in South Africa, use the starting transport in z98 to get free men in Persia. This gives me 3 transports that can land on Egy turn 2 with 5 more units. I’ll pull the air craft from Gibraltar,Malta,z98 to Egypt.

There are two paths to take with the 18 IPCs left. Either a carrier, and pull the air force including France out of London and land on the carrier, in z106 or on the carrier in z92 (if you pull the Med fleet to z92 and stack on Algeria to prevent a landing site for German air force…This gives your whole air force and navy able to pounce on Italy turn 2…plus the 3 transports in Egypt staged for a pounce on S.Italy.

Option 2( less aggression): keep the air in London turn 1, build 6 infantry and make a turn 2 Sea lion dicey…depends on how much Germany loses air wise on turn 1.

With this strategy, you want US in position (in the Atlantic) to exploit this early DOW, or Pacific placements that permit an assault on Japan. India and Anzac will want to DOW for the war NO boost…not saying this is optimum, just aggressive. In fact, Germany may want to wait a turn before taking.

If they wait, just plop out more carriers, and units in S.Africa until they take you.

Here is a map for maximum(using India) aggression: you give up London, but trade it for Italy…note: India will turtle, and I use there assets against Italy, including the optional transport z39(India). This gives 9 air units and a navy against z98 (suicide zone if Italy sends a transport there). It pins the Italian navy in its port, or they die. If Italy fails to surrender a transport to close the straight, you will have a navy of: 3 crusiers, 3 dd, 5 transports, and a carrier with 9 planes (some can stage in Malta) for a turn 3 sinking of the Italian navy or capture of Rome/greece, etc. Egypt will have a land force on after turn 2 of: 9inf, 4art, mech, arm. In fact, if you keep the Med navy in Malta(with 2 planes and 3 scrambled-1 french), and the Indian navy in z81(south Egypt sea zone), you can hold both sides of the canal with the land force and air force, and spring on Italy turn 3.

Note the German’s are in their default turn 1 positions, I just moved ships to show what UK assets would be gone. Only India and UK have placed units, and I didn’t bother placing the carrier in z106…not sure whats in there, 1 or 2 subs. You could trade it for 1 less artillery in South Africa, to have it in z81 turn 2.

Awesome analysis James! If London is captured, who gets the Italian $?

[JamesAleman]

London gets the money they plunder, they may not spend it unless they retake their capital . I’m not saying Italy is going to be captured, but they will be limited in their expansion until the US arrives I suspect.

[JimmyHat]

@DutchmanD:

Oh, this is no more ahistoric than Italy being able to take Syria, Iraq, Jordan, Egypt and the rest of the Mediteranean when they could even beat the Greek army with their entire military. Not to mention one of the most significant ahistorical flaws of G40, which is that the French troops in Aremain loyal to the Allies for some reason, not Axis Vichy…  and, if they are not at war, why are they killing Brits mercilessly on Italy 1? Don’t get me started on the whole “orginally owned” territory nonesense either, the Germans can buld a major IC in Norway and the UK can build one in Malaya, but the Japanses cannot build one in Shanghai; the Japanese were the first to build factories in Shanghai around 1900 after the First Sino-Japanese War, and by 1937, when they fully officially occupied the city, it had more manufacturing power than the rest of Southeast Asia combined!  Dice Gods forbid the Japs actually being able to make a major IC in an actual manufacturing center that they originally created        :wink:

Ahistoric… hmpf!  Nothing like an instant 10 tnps build by the Germans and the dissappearance of essentially the entire Royal Navy in the Spring of 1940 to make you give up on all the historical aspects of the game we love…
 
All good points, but directed more at game mechanics than historical accuracy.  I agree that the production cycle is not accurate to real life, it should take 3-4 turns for a BB to be built, but the game is not made for that scale.  All units you can build are placed almost immediately.  Both the US and UK fleets are severely nerfed, most likely in order to give the axis a chance that they didn’t have in RL.

As for the other issues, I understand why Vichy is not in the game, you have to draw the line somewhere and Larry choose to add France but have them be inert, while China is also hamstrung.  Otherwise you get a community of people clamoring on the BBS from Bulgaria wanting special Bulgarian rules or some other nonsense.

I have played a game where Japan could build a major in China and it did seem overpowered.  It was maxed on production and China was quickly swallowed up.  It took massive US naval builds and tenuous fighting from India to stall the Japs.  Japan was also able to not build many trns in that game and still concentrate on the Pacific islands.

Thanks for going over the Abandon London moves again James.  One would assume they became even more potent in A3, have you had the opportunity to try it yet?  It’s playing the allies like the Axis, creating the initiative and then keeping it long enough to sack Italy…hopefully.