Yes, but crsluggo pointed that out, so I had to acknowledge that. I agree with your assessment. Few battleships can fight four on one battles (unless it’s dreadnoughts vs pre dreadnoughts).
Happy New Year everyone!
If the confederates win at Antietam do they win the war?
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How exactly were the rebels supposed to win?
Lee was lucky his entire army wasn’t destroyed
mac was a idiot
Lee may have been a tactically brilliant commander, although accepting battle outnumbered and with a river at your back seems a little suspect, but his strategic plan was flawed
Lee also wanted to continue the fight the next day,but his generals talked him out of it
Every time Lee attacked in the north he got his ass kicked
He should have stayed on the defensive strategically
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Let me ask you a couple of questions. How do you think the war could have been won in the West? How do you think this victory could have helped the East?
As I recall, the furthest the Confederacy ever got in the West was Glorietta Pass – and their expeditionary force had to retreat all the way back to its starting point when the local Federal forces destroyed their supply wagons. I can’t remember what the point of the expedition was, but I think it was inspired by a vague notion that reaching the Pacific would somehow persuade Washington to recognize southern independence.
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Cromwell: Forrest is an excellent example of misuse by superiors to the detriment of all. Possibly it was jealousy or West Point arrogance of his education, but a massive waste of talent.
He found an escape route out of Donelson. Those 16000 prisoners could not be replaced at a time when the lines in the West were overstretched. It was the start of the slippery slope.
As for Longstreet, he was certainly sulking at Gettysburg and the delays on the 2nd day were to be costly. He was feeling overlooked and unappreciated. But the eve of battle was not the time to show it. Lee needed his Warhorse. It is easy to blame him.
I admire his steadfastness and as the war wore on a defensive giant like him would have made Virginia run red with Union blood.
Lee would have bettered Grant and Sherman in the West.
Still haven’t talked about AS Johnston! -
I know many think Lee should have stayed on the defensive strategically. Doesn’t that thinking have the South’s only chance of independence by political means? Most of the South’s most powerful leaders had a military education, and first thought was to win by a show of force.
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@wittman:
and the delays onAS Johnston!
…On the battlefield, Johnston was my type of general, similar to the Lee of 1864 and 1865. …I believe Shiloh to be quite a masterpiece on Jonhston’s part.
AS Johnston was a fine example of an Texan. :-)
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I think the south would have lost no matter what they did
however if they hadn’t invaded the north and conserved those resources and produced a few more cold harbors they might have forced lincoln from office
hold in the east the west is where they needed to be aggressive
they just didn’t have the resources similar to the germans problem with russia
they were fortunate the north was incompetently led in the early years of the war
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Hi Cromwell. Sorry you are unwell. I have been thinking about AS Jo, so would love to know your thoughts. Piling 20000 in to Donelson seems a mistake. The South showed itself a great offensive force when wielded aggressively. I would like to know if Donelson was his idea. The 2 forts were the key to Tennessee; Nashville could not be held once they fell. And that was a great loss morally and economically.
Shiloh was his well conceived plan to regain the initiative and did catch Grant napping. Like Chancellorsville the plan was to push the enemy in to the river, before reinforcements arrived.
Unfortunately, green troops cannot always make the necessary manoeuvres. Attacks could not be coordinated. Grant was saved by Buell’s arrival. -
Gettysburg. I have no problem with the plan. Invasion was right. The north had been punished for entering the Wilderness. ( I am trying to imagine it.)Their commander was soon to be replaced, confidence was high and desertions non existent. It probably felt like payback. I wonder how much hope was placed in relieving pressure on the Mississippi too.
The 1st 2 days were victories, but costly as usual.(Hood, Barksdale etc.)
The 3rd. Effectively only a handful of fresh brigades to use. Longstreet should have been heeded. Lee could have disengaged. But where to? Had to be Virginia. The gamble had failed.
Meantime the West was being lost. The war with it. You know my thoughts:leave Longstreet to hold with 7 divisions and the cavalry. Lee take 2 (Chickamauga earlier) and take over Bragg’s fantastic army… -
@wittman:
Replacing Bragg earlier.
The Army of Tennessee was every bit as good as ANV, but it was poorly led. Whenever it attacked, and it always did, it broke its counterpart, The Army of the Cumberland. Bragg would not heed his officers demands, instead withdrew, leaving ground his men had won. (Only time he did right was Perryville as he was vastly outnumbered.)
All the West needed was a commander worthy of its hard hitting army.
I believe Longstreet could have held Virginia, if Lee had allowed himself to leave his beloved Virginia if no other candidate had been available.
The problem was Davis and too much politics.
If the West had held, from as early as Henry and Donelson, the East would have even stronger. We will never know if an old soldier like AS Johnson could have helped the situation.Definitely! Bragg was our worst general BY FAR!
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Agreed. So I find it so ironic and I am sure you find it annoying, that some military installations are named after him, including your famous one in NC.
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I do believe the South would have won the War had it gained a victory at Antietam. With that said, I don’t know how serious the South was to attacking Washington prior to 1864. Without a push to Washington, I don’t see the South winning the war. To defend the South, it was being invaded by a foreign power. An aggressive campaign against Washington was against the very nature why the South formed in 1861. It wished to be left alone, not puruse an offensive war.
So, yes, winning the war with a push to Washington after an Antietam victory. However, in 1862, such push violated the very nature of the Southern Confederacy.
To the alpha males, Monday night quarterbacks, and sincere historians who will tell me about Jubal Early’s march on Washington in 1864, I say this-What was Jubal Early going to do to Washington with his meager force? How was Jubal Early going to breach the defenses of Washington in 1864? How was Jubal Early going to escape capture short of a supposed rescue by the rest of the ANV?
And, please no one tell me Maryland was a northern state. One, it’s beneath the Mason Dixon. Two, it was a slave state. Three, Lincoln imprisoned thousands of people and suspended the legislature at the beginning of the war to ensure Maryland’s obedience.
Sincere historians feel free to disagree. Alpha males and rude people stay away.
Maryland was a border state. It was neither North or South, but it never declared independence from the Union.
There were slaves in Maryland, and the Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to Maryland, allowing slavery in the state even after it was put into order. To say it was a Southern state is saying that the capital of the US was in the Confederacy.The Mason-Dixon line is an easy grade school way of dividing the North and the South, but it’s a little more complicated than that. It’s not like the 38th Parallel.
I also gotta ask, why do you feel the need to end a lot of your posts with stuff like “Sincere historians feel free to disagree. Alpha males and rude people stay away?”
“And, please no one tell me Maryland was a northern state.” That statement sounds rather rude and like one an alpha male might make. The whole paragraph before that too. You just know better than anyone else and can’t be convinced otherwise?
Not trying to start anything, but I’m just curious as to why you feel the need to write that as often as you do. Most people on here are pretty civil about things.
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Thank you for that Cromwell. ( Is that your surname?) Only asking because the two most famous English Cromwells do not get my vote. Do not know if you know any English history, but that name evokes a lot for us.
Thanks for your thoughts on AS Jo.
Henry did not fit the purpose(it could flood and was badly positioned), but Donelson did. Never been and seen the Fort, just wonder why 20000 men would be required to garrison it. Could it have been better used to lure the enemy to it, then assault the besiegers from the rear? Imagine Forrest with a free rein!
Can’t get the fall of Nashville out of my head. Could it have been prevented? -
My 1st fiancée told me I was tone deaf. Bitch!
Where is he buried? Not in Tennessee? -
You from NC then?
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Thanks for your honesty. Presumed your name was thus sourced. Your knowledge of history is vast. I know you are right about Thomas. It is Richie Rich who was the opportunist who died old and in his bed. Horrid obsequious man. Thomas really was principled and lived in most dangerous times. Henry VIII is not someone I admire. I suppose You know he blew all the money his mean old father generated as monarch.
I comically play on my catholic roots by talking of burning my friends asheretics(protestants), so cannot, in character, pretend to admire truely great men like he and Cramner. My wife is from Oxford and she showed me the spot he was burnt.
Religion gives us so much of our colourful history. -
Hey Cromwell. Do not know if you have seen these two eulogies of Pender.
The loss of Major-General Pender is severely felt by the army and the country. He served with this army from the beginning of the war, and took a distinguished part in all its engagements. Wounded on several on occasions, he never left his command in action until he received the injury that resulted in his death. His promise and usefulness as an officer were only equaled by the purity and excellence of his private life.[4]
— Robert E. Lee
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So, who must we blame? I say Jefferson Davis. But, to his defense, why should boys from Tennessee, Alabama, and Mississippi go and die in Virginia when their own countries were occupied by a foreign country’s army? Davis wanted to defend too much with too little. But, understand the Confederate mindset. They created a new union, a desire to be left alone. […] To defend the South though, it was against its nature to prepare for War. It desired small, limited and constitutional government. Preparing for war undermines constitutional principals and feeds the Warfare State.
One of the Confederacy’s problems was that it was caught in a kind of logical paradox. Because the South had so much fewer men, so much less industry and so much fewer natural resources than the North (a situation made worse by the Union blockade), it was imperative for it to use its military and economic assets as efficiently as possible. That would have required highly centralized government – a principle which ran counter to the Confederacy’s core belief in strong states’ rights. Jefferson Davis did, I think, take steps to expand his Presidential powers in view of the wartime emergency, but as I recall he ran into a lot of opposition.
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Thanks to Abraham Lincoln, the greatest of all Americans, the Confederacy was destined to fail, and the world is a better place because of it.
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I really think routing The Army Of The Potomac was out of the question by day 3, probably on day 2 as well, despite the valiant efforts of the attackers brushing aside double their number of defenders.(Day 2 makes great reading.) Their commander was not Hooker and they were on their own soil this time. At Chickamauga a division gap had been left for the attackers to rush in to. That was not going to happen here. By day 3 Lee did not have the troops to wreck and cause a rout. The brigades that made it far enough ended up receiving enfilade fire from the revenge seeking I and XI corps.
Leadership was lacking partly because of communication involved in the execution of the desired echelon attack, but more so because of the casualties incurred until now. I am sure there were men in some of the non Pickett brigades who thought they had already done their bit. This left far too men to break and then,importantly, exploit that break.
Artillery ammo seems to have been an issue too. -
@Col.:
I do believe the South would have won the War had it gained a victory at Antietam. With that said, I don’t know how serious the South was to attacking Washington prior to 1864. Without a push to Washington, I don’t see the South winning the war. To defend the South, it was being invaded by a foreign power. An aggressive campaign against Washington was against the very nature why the South formed in 1861. It wished to be left alone, not puruse an offensive war.
So, yes, winning the war with a push to Washington after an Antietam victory. However, in 1862, such push violated the very nature of the Southern Confederacy.
To the alpha males, Monday night quarterbacks, and sincere historians who will tell me about Jubal Early’s march on Washington in 1864, I say this-What was Jubal Early going to do to Washington with his meager force? How was Jubal Early going to breach the defenses of Washington in 1864? How was Jubal Early going to escape capture short of a supposed rescue by the rest of the ANV?
And, please no one tell me Maryland was a northern state. One, it’s beneath the Mason Dixon. Two, it was a slave state. Three, Lincoln imprisoned thousands of people and suspended the legislature at the beginning of the war to ensure Maryland’s obedience.
Sincere historians feel free to disagree. Alpha males and rude people stay away.
Maryland was a border state. It was neither North or South, but it never declared independence from the Union.
There were slaves in Maryland, and the Emancipation Proclamation did not apply to Maryland, allowing slavery in the state even after it was put into order. To say it was a Southern state is saying that the capital of the US was in the Confederacy.The Mason-Dixon line is an easy grade school way of dividing the North and the South, but it’s a little more complicated than that. It’s not like the 38th Parallel.
I also gotta ask, why do you feel the need to end a lot of your posts with stuff like “Sincere historians feel free to disagree. Alpha males and rude people stay away?”
“And, please no one tell me Maryland was a northern state.” That statement sounds rather rude and like one an alpha male might make. The whole paragraph before that too. You just know better than anyone else and can’t be convinced otherwise?
Not trying to start anything, but I’m just curious as to why you feel the need to write that as often as you do. Most people on here are pretty civil about things.
They are civil with me now because I assertively make that premise. I got tired of making nice, conversational posts to get certain responses. You can’t complain if you don’t assertively make yourself clear, right? Well, now I’m clear. If you don’t like it, don’t respond. I don’t always agree with Hobbes and Bunnies. Have you ever seen this exchange between us? For example, your rebuttal to one of my responses was to call it “grade school?” Have I ever used such language in my disagreements with people like Hobbes or Bunnies? Or how about wittman? I was civil. I was polite. I was kind. I put that premise in there for people like you. My response is grade school? Why don’t you respond to me with statistics and your interpretations of those statistics rather than ‘you are grade school.’ Notice the semi-quotes, not direct quotes.
Look at my conversations with Mallery29 over the Batman movies. We were nice and cordial. Though we disagreed a little, we were both respectful of one another. It’s ok to disagree a little and still have fun.
Here’s another example. Hobbes is right about the statistics with a G1 attack. However, over half the time, I do not destroy the German battleship. Did I call him grade school? Did I say he was lost in math books? His statistics are right. We just choose to disagree on certain aspects of the attack. I could easily have said: “Well, Hobbes, you need to get your head out of the book and face reality. I know the rolls. I lose often. Get real.” I chose not to. It’s rude, wrong, and not in my thoughts. Hobbes has always treated me with respect and kindness. I disagreed with a Bunnies post one time. Did you hear me say ‘that’s grade school?’ More examples as to my why, but I’m stopping here. You can respond, but don’t get mad if you’re just ignored.
UPDATE: Wittman and I disagree about a very polarizing figure called Oliver Cromwell. I greatly enjoy reading what Wittman writes. Is there a flame war between us? No, it’s okay to be civil and disagree. However, not all are civil, and I don’t have to tolerate it.
They were civil before you even made that comment. There wasn’t one uncivil comment on the board before your post. You asking others to be civil when they already were was the first uncivil act on this post.
I find it funny that you actually ask people not to answer back while throwing an underhand insult at them and calling them alpha males or insincere historians (are their actually any to you?). I guess you think it’s okay to slap someone as long as you do it with a white satin glove.
Where do you get the idea that everyone on this entire board argued before you started placing instructions not to argue with you? Do you do it so you’ll have a way out by calling them an alpha male. Like I said there are thousands of civil conversations on these forums that don’t include a preface about civil conversations.
I’ve tended to notice when you don’t talk down to people like you have, they don’t respond in the way you think they will.
I’m also sorry you didn’t understand the literal translation of grade school in my post. I meant they taught us in grade school as a way to remember what was north and what was south?
Just like “I” before “E” except after “C”.
All I was saying was it’s too simple an explanation, but that really bothered you because I was trying to knock you off as alpha male?Not everyone is out to insult you, and I’m not sure why you think they would want to, but you seem awful defensive.
Look at a lot of other posts where not involved and you won’t find fighting. You’re not the one preventing it.
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