Das Boot!

[warwinner]

I’ve played several games of global (perhaps 6 or more) I’m also always the axis  :evil: Anyway, every time I play, Germany loses most of its subs its first turn. Not a big game changer for me, since Germany can adapt so easily, and my style of play doesn’t utilize subs, but I still want to make the most effective use of U-boats as possible since that was one of Deutschland’s most famous war machines.

This thread is for all your sub tactics you like to use for Germany (however any helpful tips for subs and the pacific, or anywhere for that matter, is totally welcome  :-D)

I’m getting ready to start a new game with my father, but before we begin, I’m trying to develop the perfect sub strategy for my dear 'ol Kriegsmarine. What do you guys think as far as basic game tactics? Should Germany spread out their subs (as in just one per sea zone) to increase survivability? Or should Germany use wolfpack tactics?

My idea right now is to take my starting sub fleet and send the majority near Africa to pester U.S./Brit naval movement. If their naval force is too overwhelming, then I’ll interdict African convoys and patrol for targets of oppurtunity. What do you guys think? I’m open to ALL suggestions. As a good commander should keep an open mind  :wink:

[oztea]

Kill fleets in 106 and 109 with 2 subs
112 with sub and airpower, take the seazone with your navy and rely on scramble cover
build 2 subs G1, likley in 112 to bolster it

Really scares the big UK fleet, that you left alive so they are forced to protect it.
They will have trouble just throwing it away at you knowing they wont aford another for a long time

Also you killed all their transports (hopefully) and any destroyers that can reach 106

[eudemonist]

As an aside, does anybody else play with “U-Boat Peril”?  Our group generally does, and I was curious how common it is.

[warwinner]

Is “U-boat Peril” the optional rule that allows U-boats to interdict at 3? If so, then yes. I always play with all official optional rules. Now all this game needs to make it perfect for me are some official, optional National Advantages.

[M K P]

@oztea:

Kill fleets in 106 and 109 with 2 subs
112 with sub and airpower, take the seazone with your navy and rely on scramble cover
build 2 subs G1, likley in 112 to bolster it

Really scares the big UK fleet, that you left alive so they are forced to protect it.
They will have trouble just throwing it away at you knowing they wont aford another for a long time

Also you killed all their transports (hopefully) and any destroyers that can reach 106

In SZ 109 average dice & a scramble could mean you lose 2 ss and UK loses maybe a dd.

[warwinner]

Even with good dice, Germany will still lose a good chunk of its sub fleet. So how do often do you guys replensih your U-boats? I hardly buy them because of the necessity of reinforcements on the Ost front.

[SgtBlitz]

Take over S. France as Germany, probably on G2.  Use the minor IC to pump subs into the Med to bolster Italy’s crappy starting navy.  If you can seize Gibraltar and stack all your airforce in it you can keep the Allies out of the Med for several turns.  Otherwise keep your airforce in S. Italy to prevent an Allied landing and to help scramble to defend the Italian fleet.

It’s easier to attack the Allies from the Med with subs since they really can’t block from SZ 91.  SZ 112 is nice but you usually get DD blocked in SZ 110 or SZ 104.

[Henz]

personally i like to use subs and aircraft to counter an american counterattack on london.  I usually go for sealion unlesss the uk player heavily builds up and its great to have cheap units to lose versus a usually powerful american fleet.  Also one just to keep russia from its NO

[Fighter212]

@warwinner:

Is “U-boat Peril” the optional rule that allows U-boats to interdict at 3? If so, then yes. I always play with all official optional rules. Now all this game needs to make it perfect for me are some official, optional National Advantages.

could some one please explain to me what U-boat Peril is ?
Greatly appriciated

[Darby]

Motion seconded

[SgtBlitz]

@Fighter212:

could some one please explain to me what U-boat Peril is ?
Greatly appriciated

I think they mean when you’re denying the UK one of its NOs…  cause that’s all the use you’ll get out of subs besides fodder hits for your naval stacks.  Convoy damage just doesn’t really work in this game when you can use 1 destroyer and planes to kill a stack of subs who can’t escape.

[Ruanek]

I think the “U-boat Peril” optional rule is German subs remove 3 IPCs for convoy raiding instead of the normal 2.

[Gargantua]

I always use the -3 Uboat Peril optional rule.

The germans need that little edge - and it makes sub building so much more worth it.

[eudemonist]

“U-Boat Peril” is an optional rule that allows German (and only German) submarines to interdict 3 IPCs when stationed in an enemy convoy zone, as opposed to the 2 IPCs subs usually do.

@SgtBlitz:

Convoy damage just doesn’t really work in this game when you can use 1 destroyer and planes to kill a stack of subs who can’t escape.

I strongly disagree.  Convoy damage works great.  Float one or two original German subs down off the west coast of Africa.  Hard to get to, requires the Brits and French to either eat 4 IPCs a round or put themselves out of position to support the Med.  Sitting off Canada can be good, too.

[Gargantua]

Ironically, I think the convoy raiding works better AGAINST the axis, than it does for it.

Just look at the way the convoy zones are setup. Russia has no convoy zones that can be effected, save Sz125, which is in range of British Air and instant naval builds.  I mean, why isn`t it the Sz off of Karelia in the north?  Or in the Baltic?

The U.S. convoy zones basically can`t be touched.

The U.K. zones are on the FAR side of england, whilst the Axis ones are exposed in France and Norway.

The Mediterranean is also Ripe with Convoys,  many having double effect IE -2 for Italy, and -2 for Germany.  Its painful.

Let`s not talk about the Sea of Japan…

And the fact that the Axis doesn`t want to be building destroyers, whilst the allies are going to build them anyways.

[eudemonist]

@Gargantua:

Ironically, I think the convoy raiding works better AGAINST the axis, than it does for it.

True enough.  One reason I like the German subs to be a little better at it.

[SgtBlitz]

What are you talking about?  Convoy damage is so pro-Allies it practically breaks the game.  Italy is a dead duck if the Allies get significant forces into SZ 97 (up to -12 in convoy damage per turn with Yugo and Greece), and Japan’s SZ 6 can wipe out up to 1/2 of Japan’s starting income.  The Allies’ corresponding UK convoy damage SZ 109, however, is a damn death trap for the Axis for most of the game as both the US and the UK can reach it easily with destroyers and subs.

We need to add either more convoy zones to the map (I’d like to see more for Russia in SZ 126 and 127, also Vladiostock in SZ 5 possibly as an NO block), perhaps the ability to BLOCK resources entirely if you have enough naval units in a convoy zone from far-off territories.  It’d also be nice to see if subs could retreat if they survive an initial attack by a destroyer, their 1 defense is pitiful and they need some method of escape.

[knp7765]

@SgtBlitz:

It’d also be nice to see if subs could retreat if they survive an initial attack by a destroyer, their 1 defense is pitiful and they need some method of escape.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.  I’ve never liked the idea that subs can NOT submerge with an enemy destroyer present.  I’m fine with destroyers preventing the surprise strike and letting aircraft hit subs, but keeping them from submerging is a load of crap.  Submarines could escape destroyers.  It may have been harder to do, but it was possible.  It’s not right that the presence of an enemy destroyer suddenly “traps” all your subs into taking whatever pounding can be delivered by other warships and air force with no chance of escape.

[Ruanek]

I think the convoy system needs to be reworked.  A lot of it just isn’t realistic.  For example, Germany could certainly do some convoy raiding off of Normandy when it’s controlled by France, since they receive shipments there.  But when Germany controls it, it doesn’t make as much sense, because Germany wasn’t anywhere near as dependent on overseas shipping (except through the Sweden-Norway-Denmark-Germany route).  It really hurts the Axis off the coast of Europe, when in reality the European Axis didn’t have too many convoys going through the Atlantic.

[Darby]

@knp7765:

@SgtBlitz:

It’d also be nice to see if subs could retreat if they survive an initial attack by a destroyer, their 1 defense is pitiful and they need some method of escape.

I whole-heartedly agree with this.  I’ve never liked the idea that subs can NOT submerge with an enemy destroyer present.  I’m fine with destroyers preventing the surprise strike and letting aircraft hit subs, but keeping them from submerging is a load of crap.  Submarines could escape destroyers.  It may have been harder to do, but it was possible.  It’s not right that the presence of an enemy destroyer suddenly “traps” all your subs into taking whatever pounding can be delivered by other warships and air force with no chance of escape.

2 solutions:

1. “Dark Ship - Quiet Ship Run Silent Run Deep”
   Defending Subs choose to either Hit or Submerge on a 1,  and May Submerge on 2-3

or

2. “Wolf Pack Tactics”
   when more then 2 defending subs are in the same territory – Each Destroyer may only nullify/spot 2 subs. (might even make it 1 to 1)