Played today twice as Axis with LL. First one, Norwegian Gamble, and it is definitely not recommended since I simply hit and killed the Russian stack on WRus and retook Norway. The Allies messed up afterwards, but it really is the move because with a 5 inf, 5 arm buy it means some serious pressure on the Russians.
The second one had an uncommon start. Russia buys 1 fighter + 1 arm and 3 inf, attacks Belo and WRus, but keeps 1 armor back and moves it to Sinkiang to join 3 Russian inf there. It doesn’t stack Buryatia but leaves 1 inf and keeps all the rest at Yakut. Something was smelling bad for Japan, I suspected. So I bought 5 inf, 5 arm. And I attacked the Russian stack on WRus with 3 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and the entire German airforce against 7 inf, 3 art and 3 arm. Took WRus, sacrificing 3 fighters in the process, 1 hit by AA. And took Caucasus with an amphib assault, along with Karelia and Belo.
Afterwards, Russia was simply beaten. The Germans moved a stack to WRus on G2 and the Japanese landed 5 fighters there on J2. Meanwhile the UK & US tried to scramble to Europe on time but one big US transport fleet got sunk by the Japanese airforce on SZ3. He surrendered afterwards.
The key issue is really the AA - if it’s regular dice then the risk is much higher for those attacks. But if the Germans get any chance of hitting WRus on G1… it is usually devastating for Russia.
I agree the $ to activate 42 for GTO is well worth it if you are a fan of the game. Since their ad is on the back of the aa42 box, new 42 players are registering there every day. But keep in mind that a long good game will usually either start or be converted to a PBE game and that costs something like 25 cents a game.
ROCmonster my main criticism of GTO is that they don’t respond fast enough to user-suggested improvements. TripleA’s open-source model seems to fix bugs and make improvements far quicker than GTO’s pay model. And there are other issues. But all those problems noted, GTO is a wonderful community of gamers and tons of fun, and the owners and operators are genuinely good people.
Interesting that you don’t recommend Norway in low luck Hobbes. Do you recommend it in dice? It’s been a while since I played the game so I have no idea whether wr/nor or ukr/wr is more popular these days–opinion among experts seemed split right down the middle when I stopped playing 42.
GCar…if you’re reading this, which opening is currently favored in the ladder league?
Most of my Axis losses (that didn’t happen against Hobbes) have been against a Norway R1, but that in itself doesn’t prove anything.
While I see Hobbes has renamed Norwegian Gambit to a Norwegian Gamble :-D i am still unconvinced. In spite of ocassional losses I feel it serves me well, my last league win was with NG. I do not play low luck so I cannot tell how it works there, but i n dice I feel Germany gambles more with the G1 WR attack then Russia.
Well, I will give GTO second thought, but I really like how tripleA works. Since you have stopped playing V4, what are you playing these days, Zhuk?
While I see Hobbes has renamed Norwegian Gambit to a Norwegian Gamble :-D i am still unconvinced. In spite of ocassional losses I feel it serves me well, my last league win was with NG. I do not play low luck so I cannot tell how it works there, but i n dice I feel Germany gambles more with the G1 WR attack then Russia.
Well, I will give GTO second thought, but I really like how tripleA works. Since you have stopped playing V4, what are you playing these days, Zhuk?
Against LL it really turns into a gamble. If there’s only 12 units left on WRus then Germany should attack, even losing 2-3 fighters. Even with 13 units, which is the maximum Russia can get, the Germans can still hit and destroy the stack but at the cost of their entire AF.
Well, you have to also see the prize Gerrys pay. I am inclined to say that if WR is the only attack they do I am an happy Allied player as long as I can destroy their remaining units on russian 2. I think I am over 50 % against attack on WR, even if Germany suceeded. The game basically turns into a slugfest then.
Gerrys are out of water, out of Africa, will never see Norway again, while the UK/US are all over it R3/4
But I really do not want to go into all the details again, its in the thread.
I originally came just to confess that I am registered on GTO. Played my first game, won with axis. It was a joy, since guy tried to KJF me and although he had sunk my complete japanese fleet R2 (had 9% to succeed, went for it and won), I got Mosocw R5, London R7 and the game was over.
Since there is no battle calc (at least i did not notice) and no sophisticated stats (TUV) the game feels much more like the playing experience at a real table. It also really seems there is much easier to find someone to play against then at TripleA, which is a pity since i really like the interface more and the community is great. I also noticed they have a league there, that looks much more competitive than the one there is at TripleA. Does anybody have any experience with that?
Just had a 2nd game of the Norwegian Gamble (on Low Luck) as Axis.
The whole Eastern front simply collapses: WRus is attacked and taken, Caucasus taken with amphib assault (if 1-2 units) + bomber. Russian army is capable of retaking both, but Germany retains inf and armor on Karelia, E. Eur and Ukraine ready to strike back at both WRus and Caucasus.
There are only few good options for the UK/US, anything while this is happening. On this game the UK send the Middle East units through Persia… but since they didn’t bothered with the Germans on Libya they lost control of Egypt. UK going to Persia helped the fight for Caucasus (which the Axis contested for every round) but it turned into a meat grinder that Russia couldn’t afford to.
I still think the Norwegian gambit is the best option for allies ( even Hobbes showed me how to stop the axis in different way) but i will never use it in LL game. Many of GTO players rather go Pacific with USA rather then KGF so playing there u will prolly see many different strategies.
As for the league its running for about 7 months now, but unfortunately many top players left including Zhukov, FreshPrince, David Newell. I think only Gcar is left there but i see many new promising players like El_Ravager.
The major problem was that most of the players could play only pbem and that usually takes a lot of time and sometimes u cant finish the games on time which is very frustrating. The league is now prolly more challenging cause all the players are about of the same skill not like before when Zhuk was dominating the league.
I think Hobbes hit the point on the head exactly about the norwegian attack. Russia needs the units that it sends to norway for west russia to defend against a counter attack by germany. If the russian forces all die Germany R1 I don’t see how this is a winning plan for the allies… Maybe Russia doesn’t fall by german hands, and Vs. a good allied player russia can hold Vs germany. The real problem is now japan is a lot stronger because it is able to make a ton of ground early and take russia’s money away.
The major problem was that most of the players could play only pbem and that usually takes a lot of time and sometimes u cant finish the games on time which is very frustrating. The league is now prolly more challenging cause all the players are about of the same skill not like before when Zhuk was dominating the league.
Lukalion is being modest–technically Lukalion and I had the same record so we were co-champions. But yeah it did seem like the competition was going to get harder with Axis strategies rapidly improving and talented players like El_Ravager and Football moving up. It was time to get out while I was ahead :)
I burned out quick since 42 is so similar to Revised and I’d experienced Revised burnout before. Even though aa50 is getting more technical I continue to prefer it at this time.
I find the GTO league format too demanding. It takes alot of time/effort/analysis to win PBE games and since I hate losing, I was spending more time then I ought to on them. While the league is alot of fun, I prefer a straight ratings format like the TripleA ladder.
Interesting discussion on Nor/WR. I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck. If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?
Interesting discussion on Nor/WR. I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck. If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?
With LL Russia needs only to lose 2 inf… which it will unless G rolls a 6 on the 1st round of combat on WRus. Russia is left with 7 inf, 2 art and 3 arm, Germany attacks with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and 4 fighters. So it’s basically suicide for the Russians.
Interesting discussion on Nor/WR. I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck. If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?
With LL Russia needs only to lose 2 inf… which it will unless G rolls a 6 on the 1st round of combat on WRus. Russia is left with 7 inf, 2 art and 3 arm, Germany attacks with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and 4 fighters. So it’s basically suicide for the Russians.
Does that factor in the AA gun that should be on West Russia?
@Bunnies:
Interesting discussion on Nor/WR. I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck. If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?
With LL Russia needs only to lose 2 inf… which it will unless G rolls a 6 on the 1st round of combat on WRus. Russia is left with 7 inf, 2 art and 3 arm, Germany attacks with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and 4 fighters. So it’s basically suicide for the Russians.
Does that factor in the AA gun that should be on West Russia?
Yes but I didn’t mentioned it there, already removed the extra ftr. So, 5 fighters attacking, 1 gets shot down. O And you still get the bomber to use elsewhere. I should have included that notice above.
This situation can be very dangerous to Russia, period.
I’ve just played Germany’s round on GTO and counterattacked on W Russia, with Russia only attacking on WRus and buying 1 sub and 1 ftr. 6 inf, ,1 art, 3 arm and 5 fighters against 6 inf, 2 art and 3 arm and AA Gun. I also attacked SZ2 and landed on Gibraltar.
I got lucky on W Russia (0 AA hits) and should have lost more 2 units (ended up with 2 inf, 1 art, 3 arm there) but now the Russians are dead meat. The UK couldn’t sink the Med fleet (ended trying to land on Norway), so now the US ended up landing on Algeria to allow the Russians to attack the Med fleet. Crazy…
EDIT: Allies just surrendered. Put less than 12 (or even more!) Russian units on WRussia without attacking Ukraine on R1 and things can get ugly… unless you get lucky on dice (90% odds for Germany)
EDIT: Ouch. I think I have bad news for the Russians. I’m thinking of writing a strategy article for the Germans to go for that smashing hit against West Russia, depending on a number of conditions (Russian buys & combat losses on R1). Even with dice, Russia going Norway is starting to look as an opportunity for the Germans. You’re still gambling with the Luftwaffe on the AA gun but since it is the first round you might as well try your luck.
What I like to do is attack West Russia with everything. I can, excluding some units to defend Caucasus. I try to completely crush the Germans in West Russia so that I have as many surviving units as possible. Hopefully then Germany cannot take that back, because it is really hard to keep attacking if I lose my tanks and artillery.
To compensate with the threat of Japan, I move pretty much everything in the east to the western front. This forces Japan to spread out (harder for J to attack), but lets me keep a line of defense against them. I keep four inf in Yakut SSR and two in Novosibirsk to either move north if J tries to attack there, or to move into China if J attacks there instead.
I have not yet tried taking both West Russia and Ukraine on R1, but then I don’t have quite as much time to play as many other members on this site. I will definitely consider it in my next game though.
I have not yet tried taking both West Russia and Ukraine on R1, but then I don’t have quite as much time to play as many other members on this site. I will definitely consider it in my next game though.
Do try it, it’s a lot of German units that cannot participate in a german counter attack against West Russia. (and killing of a tank and a fighter is a good incentive as well)
That said, it is best to assign planes to attack Ukraine and tanks to West Russia (as the Ukraine survivors will most probably die in G1)
What I like to do is attack West Russia with everything. I can, excluding some units to defend Caucasus. I try to completely crush the Germans in West Russia so that I have as many surviving units as possible. Hopefully then Germany cannot take that back, because it is really hard to keep attacking if I lose my tanks and artillery.
The problem is that the only way to secure your Russian forces on West Russia during Germany’s round is to move almost everything, 15 units or more, otherwise they can be attacked and destroyed, so you really have to either get lucky and suffer 0 casualties or you’ll have to leave Caucasus for G or you risk being hit on 1 of them. Check the stats on the Case Blue strategy article I’m writing, on the Article Submission section.
My first attempt at it was a success. My oppenent did counter by all out attacking WR but I was able to retake it back. So much UK equipment left untouched due to his all out attack on WR that the Med was easily cleared with the UK. With USA and UK threatening landings in Western Europe from turn 2 onwards, Germany had to quickly turtle, Japan couldn’t get its fighters in place quickly enough to make a difference.
I really liked using a different opening from my normal, was a lot of fun! Fastest win I’ve had with the allies to date. Looking forward to playing the axis against the strategy.
it is true that UK and US make quick gains, but if you buy correctly for germany, almost all infantry every round, then Russia becomes so weak that he can’t stand on his own. This forces UK to give troops to russia to keep russia from falling to a good german strategy. Germany doesn’t take Russia but then Japan becomes more powerful faster because russia can’t afford to send a good deal of units vs Japan.
it is true that UK and US make quick gains, but if you buy correctly for germany, almost all infantry every round, then Russia becomes so weak that he can’t stand on his own. This forces UK to give troops to russia to keep russia from falling to a good german strategy. Germany doesn’t take Russia but then Japan becomes more powerful faster because russia can’t afford to send a good deal of units vs Japan.
So you buy almost all infantry every round? I understand your logic. However, the allies have time on their side. If Germany buys mostly infantry every round, wouldn’t it take longer for them to reach the front lines, thus giving US and UK more time to build up a navy and start landing troops in Western Europe? I’ve never played using this strategy, but I am just confused about how it would work.
The earlier you produce infantry, the earlier it gets to the front lines. But the Germans have a few problems with constant all infantry builds.
1. Infantry lack the mobility of tanks, which not only slows progress against the Russians, but also decreases Germany’s options late game. Imagine 20 German tanks on Eastern Europe with a few fodder infantry. That force defends Eastern Europe, threatens Karelia, Archangel, Belorussia, West Russia, Ukraine, and Caucasus. (I think). It also helps screw with Allied landings on Western Europe.
2. Germany can only use tanks on the G2 (Germany’s second turn) attack movement phase that were either began on the board or that were produced on G1. Typically, you need about 2 German tanks built on G1 to open up any sort of really interesting possibilities for G2; 5 German tanks is a better bet a lot of the time because it applies more pressure early.
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On the other hand, all infantry builds can be very nasty in some circumstances. The key is to use German infantry to soak up casualties and tanks and air for hitting power; the Germans need to preserve their tanks and air because they aren’t producing any more.
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When to do one or the other? I would say to use all infantry German build on G1 if you think you can capitalize on some bad luck or mistakes that Russia made, or perhaps if you’re going for a coordinated 4-5 attack with Japan. Generally, though, the additional IPCs you spend on early tanks let you threaten a lot more territory, which makes the game much more interesting. 10 infantry 2 tanks, or 5 infantry 5 tanks are quite different; I’d say a player should try switching between those to see which he/she prefers.
Of course, there are other builds like 1-2 bombers, or Med fleet, but I won’t get into that here.
I really dont see all inf buy working as a good strategy against succesful Norwegian gambit. If allies set up in Karelia in time, the infantry will never come to threaten russia at all. And with Germany on -40 and UK/US pumping 16 units to Europe a round it is only a matter of time before Allies get Berlin because Germany will not stay competitive in the arms race.
On the other hand buying all inf Germany can be a powerful offensive move if you see Allies go after Japan. I than ussually buy all inf on G2, G3 moving that East and building all tanks, R4 moving all that infantry and tanks to UKR and building some more tanks, R5 taking cauc, moving the tanks from Berlin to Ukr, building bmbs, R6 taking Moscow.
It worked for me so perfectly against last KJF attempt applied on me, that I took moscow with 21 tanks remaining. But this you will not be able to do if Russia is not wasting its units on skirmishes with Japan in Far East and if US/UK set up themselves on Norway/WEU R3.
