R1 Norway Attack! HOT or NOT?

[Hobbes]

@Zhukov44:

Interesting discussion on Nor/WR.  I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck.  If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?

With LL Russia needs only to lose 2 inf… which it will unless G rolls a 6 on the 1st round of combat on WRus. Russia is left with 7 inf, 2 art and 3 arm, Germany attacks with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and 4 fighters. So it’s basically suicide for the Russians.

[newpaintbrush]

@Hobbes:

@Zhukov44:

Interesting discussion on Nor/WR.  I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck.  If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?

With LL Russia needs only to lose 2 inf… which it will unless G rolls a 6 on the 1st round of combat on WRus. Russia is left with 7 inf, 2 art and 3 arm, Germany attacks with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and 4 fighters. So it’s basically suicide for the Russians.

Does that factor in the AA gun that should be on West Russia?

[Hobbes]

@Bunnies:

@Hobbes:

@Zhukov44:

Interesting discussion on Nor/WR.  I’m curious what people’s guidelines are on when it’s appropriate for Germany to counter WR following a standard Nor/WR opening for both dice and low luck.  If Russia loses 3 inf, do you go for it, or does Russia need to lose 4?

With LL Russia needs only to lose 2 inf… which it will unless G rolls a 6 on the 1st round of combat on WRus. Russia is left with 7 inf, 2 art and 3 arm, Germany attacks with 6 inf, 1 art, 3 arm and 4 fighters. So it’s basically suicide for the Russians.

Does that factor in the AA gun that should be on West Russia?

Yes but I didn’t mentioned it there, already removed the extra ftr. So, 5 fighters attacking, 1 gets shot down. O And you still get the bomber to use elsewhere. I should have included that notice above.

[Hobbes]

This situation can be very dangerous to Russia, period.

I’ve just played Germany’s round on GTO and counterattacked on W Russia, with Russia only attacking on WRus and buying 1 sub and 1 ftr. 6 inf, ,1 art, 3 arm and 5 fighters against 6 inf, 2 art and 3 arm and AA Gun. I also attacked SZ2 and landed on Gibraltar.

I got lucky on W Russia (0 AA hits) and should have lost more 2 units (ended up with 2 inf, 1 art, 3 arm there) but now the Russians are dead meat. The UK couldn’t sink the Med fleet (ended trying to land on Norway), so now the US ended up landing on Algeria to allow the Russians to attack the Med fleet. Crazy…

EDIT: Allies just surrendered. Put less than 12 (or even more!) Russian units on WRussia without attacking Ukraine on R1 and things can get ugly… unless you get lucky on dice (90% odds for Germany)

EDIT: Ouch. I think I have bad news for the Russians. I’m thinking of writing a strategy article for the Germans to go for that smashing hit against West Russia, depending on a number of conditions (Russian buys & combat losses on R1). Even with dice, Russia going Norway is starting to look as an opportunity for the Germans. You’re still gambling with the Luftwaffe on the AA gun but since it is the first round you might as well try your luck.

[mastermind93]

What I like to do is attack West Russia with everything. I can, excluding some units to defend Caucasus. I try to completely crush the Germans in West Russia so that I have as many surviving units as possible. Hopefully then Germany cannot take that back, because it is really hard to keep attacking if I lose my tanks and artillery.

To compensate with the threat of Japan, I move pretty much everything in the east to the western front. This forces Japan to spread out (harder for J to attack), but lets me keep a line of defense against them. I keep four inf in Yakut SSR and two in Novosibirsk to either move north if J tries to attack there, or to move into China if J attacks there instead.

I have not yet tried taking both West Russia and Ukraine on R1, but then I don’t have quite as much time to play as many other members on this site. I will definitely consider it in my next game though.

[special forces]

@mastermind93:

I have not yet tried taking both West Russia and Ukraine on R1, but then I don’t have quite as much time to play as many other members on this site. I will definitely consider it in my next game though.

Do try it, it’s a lot of German units that cannot participate in a german counter attack against West Russia. (and killing of a tank and a fighter is a good incentive as well)
That said, it is best to assign planes to attack Ukraine and tanks to West Russia (as the Ukraine survivors will most probably die in G1)

[Hobbes]

@mastermind93:

What I like to do is attack West Russia with everything. I can, excluding some units to defend Caucasus. I try to completely crush the Germans in West Russia so that I have as many surviving units as possible. Hopefully then Germany cannot take that back, because it is really hard to keep attacking if I lose my tanks and artillery.

The problem is that the only way to secure your Russian forces on West Russia during Germany’s round is to move almost everything, 15 units or more, otherwise they can be attacked and destroyed, so you really have to either get lucky and suffer 0 casualties or you’ll have to leave Caucasus for G or you risk being hit on 1 of them. Check the stats on the Case Blue strategy article I’m writing, on the Article Submission section.

[bongaroo]

My first attempt at it was a success.  My oppenent did counter by all out attacking WR but I was able to retake it back.  So much UK equipment left untouched due to his all out attack on WR that the Med was easily cleared with the UK.  With USA and UK threatening landings in Western Europe from turn 2 onwards, Germany had to quickly turtle, Japan couldn’t get its fighters in place quickly enough to make a difference.

I really liked using a different opening from my normal, was a lot of fun!  Fastest win I’ve had with the allies to date.  Looking forward to playing the axis against the strategy.

[theROCmonster]

it is true that UK and US make quick gains, but if you buy correctly for germany, almost all infantry every round, then Russia becomes so weak that he can’t stand on his own. This forces UK to give troops to russia to keep russia from falling to a good german strategy. Germany doesn’t take Russia but then Japan becomes more powerful faster because russia can’t afford to send a good deal of units vs Japan.

[mastermind93]

@theROCmonster:

it is true that UK and US make quick gains, but if you buy correctly for germany, almost all infantry every round, then Russia becomes so weak that he can’t stand on his own. This forces UK to give troops to russia to keep russia from falling to a good german strategy. Germany doesn’t take Russia but then Japan becomes more powerful faster because russia can’t afford to send a good deal of units vs Japan.

So you buy almost all infantry every round? I understand your logic. However, the allies have time on their side. If Germany buys mostly infantry every round, wouldn’t it take longer for them to reach the front lines, thus giving US and UK more time to build up a navy and start landing troops in Western Europe? I’ve never played using this strategy, but I am just confused about how it would work.

[newpaintbrush]

The earlier you produce infantry, the earlier it gets to the front lines.  But the Germans have a few problems with constant all infantry builds.

1.  Infantry lack the mobility of tanks, which not only slows progress against the Russians, but also decreases Germany’s options late game.  Imagine 20 German tanks on Eastern Europe with a few fodder infantry.  That force defends Eastern Europe, threatens Karelia, Archangel, Belorussia, West Russia, Ukraine, and Caucasus.  (I think).  It also helps screw with Allied landings on Western Europe.

2.  Germany can only use tanks on the G2 (Germany’s second turn) attack movement phase that were either began on the board or that were produced on G1.  Typically, you need about 2 German tanks built on G1 to open up any sort of really interesting possibilities for G2; 5 German tanks is a better bet a lot of the time because it applies more pressure early.

–

On the other hand, all infantry builds can be very nasty in some circumstances.  The key is to use German infantry to soak up casualties and tanks and air for hitting power; the Germans need to preserve their tanks and air because they aren’t producing any more.

–

When to do one or the other?  I would say to use all infantry German build on G1 if you think you can capitalize on some bad luck or mistakes that Russia made, or perhaps if you’re going for a coordinated 4-5 attack with Japan.  Generally, though, the additional IPCs you spend on early tanks let you threaten a lot more territory, which makes the game much more interesting.  10 infantry 2 tanks, or 5 infantry 5 tanks are quite different; I’d say a player should try switching between those to see which he/she prefers.

Of course, there are other builds like 1-2 bombers, or Med fleet, but I won’t get into that here.

[Granada]

I really dont see all inf buy working as a good strategy against succesful Norwegian gambit. If allies set up in Karelia in time, the infantry will never come to threaten russia at all. And with Germany on -40 and UK/US pumping 16 units to Europe a round it is only a matter of time before Allies get Berlin because Germany will not stay competitive in the arms race.

On the other hand buying all inf Germany can be a powerful offensive move if you see Allies go after Japan. I than ussually buy all inf on G2, G3 moving that East and building all tanks, R4 moving all that infantry and tanks to UKR and building some more tanks, R5 taking cauc, moving the tanks from Berlin to Ukr, building bmbs, R6 taking Moscow.

It worked for me so perfectly against last KJF attempt applied on me, that I took moscow with 21 tanks remaining. But this you will not be able to do if Russia is not wasting its units on skirmishes with Japan in Far East and if US/UK set up themselves on Norway/WEU R3.

[theROCmonster]

Honestly Granada I would have to show you in a game. Not to sound cocky but I am very good and don’t make mistakes. For this strategy to work you have know when you are able to move your infantry stacks out of Germany/southern Germany/Eastern Europe/ and sometime karelia if you are here. You are correct in that germany won’t have much attack power. I almost always build 10 inf 2 tanks R1. Gives Germany some options on R2. Even possibly sending a tank to africa if your fleet was not destroyed. The thing is Germany doesn’t need attack power so much as Stacking power. 6 tanks =30 while as 10 infantry=30 is a huge difference. The more units you can stack in a Certain area the better. I am not a big fan of trying to take an hold western Europe. I Usually give this up very early on in the game and send almost everything at Russia. Germany’s tanks are vital in holding back both russia and US and UK. Try keeping Germany tankss in Eastern Europe. This both protects against a combined stack in western europe from the allies, and also is realy scary to russia and can hit many fronts on your eastern theatre.