Too funny! :-D
Was the US a superpower before WWII?
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@Imperious:
If it was 1850 perhaps we would have made Canada into more states.
Sure… and perhaps Washington would have been burned down… again!
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Why would we want a territory because it’s filled with bandits and robbers? Okay maybe to stop them from hiding there but the main reason was probably more land. The South would want another slave state. Which brings me to my other point. In 1850 America was a decade away from the bloodiest war in American history. It really doesn’t have anything to do with this but I had a grandfather (a great-great grandfather or something like that) fight in that war. More Americans died in the Civil War than both World Wars COMBINED! If that didn’t weaken America then I don’t know what did or could. It took America a while to recover especially the South.
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A war in 1850 would have united both sides to fight this war and General Lee and others would have easily taken out Canada. England would not be able to supply Canada too well compared to America. I guess it would have to be after the Missouri compromise however. That would have bought the time to finish that war.
Probably could have taken out Mexico too considering what happened about 2 years before. They were very weak after they lost.
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From Wikipedia….
Seminole Indians based in East Florida began raiding Georgia settlements, and offering havens for runaway slaves. The United States Army led increasingly frequent incursions into Spanish territory, including the 1817–1818 campaign against the Seminole Indians by Andrew Jackson that became known as the First Seminole War. The United States now effectively controlled East Florida. Control was necessary according to Secretary of State John Quincy Adams because Florida had become “a derelict open to the occupancy of every enemy, civilized or savage, of the United States, and serving no other earthly purpose than as a post of annoyance to them.”.[15] Florida had become a burden to Spain, which could not afford to send settlers or garrisons. Madrid therefore decided to cede the territory to the United States through the Adams-Onís Treaty, which took effect in 1821.[16]
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Still thats an awful lot of rich farmland if you clear it :wink:
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‘Clearing’ consisted of draining mosquito and gator invested swamps, not exactly trivial work. I think the west was an easier bet for agricultural expansion. Besides, Florida is going to be a sandbar in the Gulf of Mexico in about 100 years.
General Lee and others would have had a tough time taking out Canada in 1850, it didn’t exist then. ‘Upper Canada’ would certainly be vulnerable, Ontario was sparsely populated and tough to bring supplies in. Northern Canada and Quebec would have been easy to supply by the British as compared to an invader deep in the forests and rivers of a foreign land.
Canada had POW camps in these forests for the Germans in WW II. They camps were not really well guarded, didn’t need to be. The Germans were pretty much free to explore 100 of miles of remote forest with the dreaded black fly swarms. They didn’t try often, those that did quickly tried to get recaptured to escape the black flies. In fact, the prisoners had access to luxuries that the citizens didn’t get due to rationing…such as cooking oils and shortening. The prisoners would often break out of camp, visit local families and trade their cooking supplies so the farmers families could bake apple pies for both sides. The prisoners would later return for their share of the pies.
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I;m mainly talking about Northern Flordia. Also that two more senators for the slave states in congress.
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@221B:
Under your hypothesis, when was the USA a regional power? I would guess at the Adams-Onasis treaty of 1819 where Spain gave up claims to Florida and Oregon, simply because the USA wanted these.
I would say the Monroe Doctrine (1823) marked the declaration of the US as Regional Power and Global Player (Hey Europe this is our backyard, keep out). The Texas War of Independence (1835-36)\US Annexation (1845) and Mexican American War (1846-48) confirmed the status.
@221B:
Would the opening of Japan by the Americans in 1853 as an example of actions by a superpower have counted do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ShipsThere’s no doubt that trade in the Far East was a major driving force propelling US to Superpower status leading to the Spanish-American War, following the Civil War and the rise of the Coal Powered “Iron Clads”, the Navy needed “Coaling” stations for the warships that protected US trade routes. The Philippines was idealy situated. Cuba was the pretext for the war, but the Philippines was the prize.
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I’d consider the US to be more of a regional power/great power than a superpower pre-WWII.
Yeah, the general definition of superpower is to have the ability to direct force/influence around the world. The USA could probably do that in the late 19th century. But I’d also think it requires a desire to be able to do so, and the USA was too isolationist outside its regions of interest (North America, Carribean, Pacific). Plus, being a superpower implies some sort of dominance globally, and again the USA was too isolationist. Too many other great powers that wouldn’t back US policy. That’s all completely different during and after WWII.
I wouldn’t consider the US to be anywhere near superpower status until its economy passed the British economy (1880’s, I think). Before then it was too focused internally, and after that is when it really started to build up its navy, which is key to being a superpower (or at least the American method for being one).
For the War of 1812: the USA lost that war in several ways. The only reason it didn’t lose anything was Britain was too focused on Napoleon. It certainly contributed to great power status, though (being able to go toe to toe with the British Empire and come out ok).
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For the War of 1812: the USA lost that war in several ways. The only reason it didn’t lose anything was Britain was too focused on Napoleon. It certainly contributed to great power status, though (being able to go toe to toe with the British Empire and come out ok).
Personally I see the war of 1812 as a little guy coming up behind a big guy who’s already in a fight and then smashing him over the back with a chair. Had it been politically popular to invade and crush the United States in the early part of 19th century after the Napoleionic wars the British empire would have had no trouble in doing so. During the American revolution it was opposition to the war politically back in England that prevented the British ultimately emerging victorious and leaving the 13 colonies to their own devices because they were seen as kin and not enemies.
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As a Canadian, it never felt like we were the big guy the poor little USA was hitting the back of the head with a chair. Of course as a product of the Canadian education system I feel this way. It was never emphasised it was a US attack on Britain as Canada didn’t exist for another 55 years. Yeah, we all knew 1867 was our Day 1 as a country but that was merely a technicality. Of course in the 70s Canada was a great deal more lefty and somewhat….I wouldn’t say anti-American, but perhaps a bit defensive at perceived slights by the US. Which was weird for me as I grew up 30 KM from the US and most TV on the rabbit ears was from Buffalo NY.
Note to USA. I can remember not too long ago being pissed about a Canadian dollar only being worth 65 cents in the US. Now its worth 1.05 or so. You guys are like cousins who have bad spending habits. I like you guys but you’all need to take note that you are slipping behind the others relatively speaking. Having them catch up is natural, starting to watch them pull up then ahead shouldn’t be so natural.
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As a Canadian, it never felt like we were the big guy the poor little USA was hitting the back of the head with a chair. Of course as a product of the Canadian education system I feel this way. It was never emphasised it was a US attack on Britain as Canada didn’t exist for another 55 years. Yeah, we all knew 1867 was our Day 1 as a country but that was merely a technicality. Of course in the 70s Canada was a great deal more lefty and somewhat….I wouldn’t say anti-American, but perhaps a bit defensive at perceived slights by the US. Which was weird for me as I grew up 30 KM from the US and most TV on the rabbit ears was from Buffalo NY.
Note to USA. I can remember not too long ago being pissed about a Canadian dollar only being worth 65 cents in the US. Now its worth 1.05 or so. You guys are like cousins who have bad spending habits. I like you guys but you’all need to take note that you are slipping behind the others relatively speaking. Having them catch up is natural, starting to watch them pull up then ahead shouldn’t be so natural.
I was more referring to the British Empire as a whole as its resources were tied up elsewhere in the world. What is facinating about the war of 1812 is how quickly the 13 colonies went from being British themselves in 1776 to more or less siding with Napoleon against the British less than 40 years later. Another interesting thought it that had the French actually won the Napoleonic wars I have little doubt that the fledgling United States would of eventually come under the dominion of the French Empire.
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