If you pull off Sealion and the US isn’t in the war already or sitting on Gibraltar, they are at least 2 moves away from getting any kind of help to London. Italy should take Gibraltar if they can and block out the Mediterranean. Italy can move troops to the west coast and get into Syria and hopefully Iraq (if Russia hasn’t gotten their first) Then take over Africa. Build London up by 6-10 ipc’s per turn (now there are 6 of any kind of build you made, plus all your air units). US at that point needs to make a hard decision, liberate Europe or kill Japan. Fact is they cant do both. Germany and Japan are making a combined 120-140 ipc’s at that point and Italy can make an easy 30+ with their NO’s running wild in Africa. $ wise, game over, and you didn’t even have to make a move on the US. Still a lot of factors have to be taken care of, like is there still an allied NAVY in the Mediterranean? Does Italy still have any NAVY left? What kind of landing force is left in London. And where is Russia? Can Japan put pressure on Russia? Is Japan bombing the heck out of Calcutta?
Sealion inevitable?
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Sealion will not be a normal strategy. It is impossible on turn one and by turn two it becomes a very difficult prospect. I predict that people will look upon an early Sealion as a waste of resources, and even with its success, being little gain for big sacrafice (in time and money). It will not become an India Crush strategy. I believe it is a losing strategy for Germany.
I do not doubt its 5-10 % chance of success… but in perspective of the whole game, it will not help the Germans.
Besides, if the German player tries it and fails, it will signal the near immediate end of the game… which isn’t very fun for anyone.
Perhaps, but the sinking of the entire atlantic fleet does seem very a-historical. Historically, they maybe sunk 1 of the BB fleets and the 2 cruisers, that’s all. They definatly did not sink the entire RCN
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I do think that destroying the RN in G1 and then hitting Russia in G2 will become somewhat of a standard even tho there are other options. Destoying the fleet will deffo be a standard G1 move as you can kill so much with so little losses.
Yes, but it sounds as if all of Germany’s bonuses try to make them take england, and not russia. 5 ipcs for being at peace with russia, and then Russia earning 5 ipcs for being at what with germany?
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That is true but there should not be that many turns before the Germans have taken 5 IPC:s from Russia.
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Again, if the opportunity presents itself I think that you have to try. Knocking out one major power will lead to a lot less headache and force the US to have to concentrate on liberating UK first, leaving Germany extra time to deal with Russia, and allowing Japan to use the India crush strategy. But from from what it looks like Germany will have to get very lucky in order for it to succeed.
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Again, if the opportunity presents itself I think that you have to try. Knocking out one major power will lead to a lot less headache and force the US to have to concentrate on liberating UK first, leaving Germany extra time to deal with Russia, and allowing Japan to use the India crush strategy. But from from what it looks like Germany will have to get very lucky in order for it to succeed.
Oh yeah, if you have the opportunity then do it. I’d jump on that if I were the German player.
I have done a “Sealion” before, but not with Germany. It is just too obvious if the German player attempts it. That is the thing though… any half intelligent British player will constantly consider the need to have England decently fortified (if Germany has a transport anywhere in range). And unless the Germans have a transport already on the board, Sealion isn’t going to work. You can’t just buy transports and hope Tommy won’t realize what you plan to do next turn.
I will say that Sealion only becomes more difficult as the game goes on, becasue Germany has to deal with Russia, the UK re-establishes itself and America is sending men over to England. Unless England is financially dire and the US is out of the way … a planned Sealion will not work.
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Which is what makes even the feigned Sea Lion attack an effective strategy because England is vulnerable at first (just as they were in the real war), but a concerted effort would stop the Germans. The German generals played out their own wargame of a Sea Lion invasion and found that they most likely could land in Scotland in force, but that they would then likely be cut off from the sea and their invasion crushed. So try to fake out the British by threatening and then shifting east again to bog them down, or you could just try to keep the path to England clear with your subs and luftwaffe and hope to catch the limeys with their pants down not paying attention to a German transport moving 3 spaces from a naval base.
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@SAS:
Which is what makes even the feigned Sea Lion attack an effective strategy because England is vulnerable at first (just as they were in the real war), but a concerted effort would stop the Germans. The German generals played out their own wargame of a Sea Lion invasion and found that they most likely could land in Scotland in force, but that they would then likely be cut off from the sea and their invasion crushed. So try to fake out the British by threatening and then shifting east again to bog them down, or you could just try to keep the path to England clear with your subs and luftwaffe and hope to catch the limeys with their pants down not paying attention to a German transport moving 3 spaces from a naval base.
Very true. It is a perfect distraction if you wish to try something devious. Not a bad tool at all… but as for using a Sealion feint as an actual Sealion… well, I have serious doubts. Not doubts that it would sometimes work, but doubts that it is a worthwile gamble. I would hope that even a failure doesn’t mean the game is shot… but I guess we will see.
Having a large number of transports would necessitate the spending of IPCs and starting units to protect them. Meaning that it will tie down German units and expenditures that may be better used elsewhere or in other ways.
You get the point though: I am not a doubter of the strategy itself; I am NOT a proponent.
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As SAS points out and from what I’ve seen the German player has to keep UK honest and at least keep Sea Lion open as an option even though it is very difficult to pull off. If the German player completely gives up on that option then the UK player is free to have minimal defense and use it’s IPC’s on other aspects of the game.
When I play as Germany I don’t think I’ll spend my IPC’s solely on naval units because I’ll want to prep for an inevitable conflict with Russia and if Russia is able to build up it’s land forces that they are greater than mine then the eventual outcome won’t look good.
Pretty cool game mechanics if you ask me.
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Yeah this game looks to have pretty sweet mechanics and I am itching to test them. One thing I am happy with is that we are able to consider all these different strategies… it is a tribute to the game’s potential.
I don’t necessarily agree that Germany HAS to keep Britain honest. I never have had to do that in previous games, and while this game is different in some respects, it is very evident that Britain will have more to deal with in this game than ever before.
I am used to fighting offensively against Russia alone and makeing what defenses I can against the US/UK. This doesn’t mean I LET them have rule of the oceans, but it becomes inevitable in previous game versions. Germany just doesn’t have the money to spend (in ships or aircraft) to fight a war on all fronts… at least they haven’t before. Maybe with this new game, the political rules and so forth, that will change, but I don’t know. In the prrevious games, neither England or the US has threatened Berlin with amphibious invasion, and those against France are generally back and forth affairs.
It becomes incredibly difficult to “keep Britain honest” when she can generally outbuild you on that front. Plus, with the US involved, it is pointless to continue trying to compete with 3 major powers on 2 or three different fronts. You might be able to keep Britain honest early in the game, but not for long after.
Although that may be a decent strategy, if you have the right objectives and you don’t let yourself get suckered into a competition for control of the sea. The sad thing is that eventually your “Honesty Fleet”, if they are seagoing forces, will be outmatched and sunk… Whether or not it becomes a waste of IPCs is really decided by whether or not your feints have paid off somehow.
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Yeah LHoffman, I agree with you. You can’t compete with UK and US in IPC’s, especially once you go to war with Russia. As far as keeping Britain honest, Germany can only afford to do that in the first and second turn while it is potentially only at war with UK and France. After that the war of the Atlantic is likely to tilt in the Allies favor and Sea Lion becomes a complete lost cause and impossible to feign.
I think it will be a balance of preparing for war with Russia and feigning a Sea Lion attempt. Who knows you might catch UK on a bad day and Sea Lion becomes a real possiblity even though you weren’t planning on it. That might be the key to winning, the perfect balance.
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Yeah LHoffman, I agree with you. You can’t compete with UK and US in IPC’s, especially once you go to war with Russia. As far as keeping Britain honest, Germany can only afford to do that in the first and second turn while it is potentially only at war with UK and France. After that the war of the Atlantic is likely to tilt in the Allies favor and Sea Lion becomes a complete lost cause and impossible to feign.
I think it will be a balance of preparing for war with Russia and feigning a Sea Lion attempt. Who knows you might catch UK on a bad day and Sea Lion becomes a real possiblity even though you weren’t planning on it. That might be the key to winning, the perfect balance.
True dat.
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You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done. Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate. Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn. Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia. So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5. Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.
The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board. If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.
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You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done. Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate. Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn. Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia. So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5. Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.
The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board. If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.
I hope this game wasn’t created to be anti-British. If Sealion is successful(which it should never have been allowed to be), then the US does most of the fighting and has to “save” England. This seems to play into Americans’ misconceptions that we “saved” the allies.
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I hope this game wasn’t created to be anti-British. If Sealion is successful(which it should never have been allowed to be), then the US does most of the fighting and has to “save” England. This seems to play into Americans’ misconceptions that we “saved” the allies.
Heh I always thought that was a funny messed up joke to tell to buddies from England. “Yeah you bought me a beer? Well we saved your asses in World War 2!”
Personally I like that Sea Lion is a possibility, by no means should it be a prime strategy, just a risky one that requires a lot to go right in order to work. Once you start designing games to block strategies and pigeon holing a player into one strategy you really hurt the quality of the game.
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This seems to play into Americans’ misconceptions that we “saved” the allies.
Well… we did. :-D
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You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done. Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate. Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn. Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia. So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5. Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.
The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board. If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.
I take a bit of issue with this plan. It seems to me that if you wanted to do a successful Sealion, it would have to be ASAP… meaning G2… NOT G3. If you wait till G3, that is all the more units Britain can buy. Unless you plan attacking England on G1 with the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately, this is sucidal for your aircraft without land unit support.
By G3/R3 Russia will be Godzilla sized… and they are going to need Japan to come bail them out somehow.
One thing I am curious about… why do you need to buy a DD and a SUB on G1? To me such units seem useless, especially in this situation. Why not buy more infantry or transports for G2/G3 attack? And by the time G4 rolls around, Germany should have more important things to deal with than reinforcing England; unless the Japs and Italians start bringing the war to the USSR… but even then…
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I find it very cool that the game sets you up with basically the same options for Sea Lion that the Germans historically had. A G1 air assault on Great Britain to take out the 3 fighters they start with would mirror the Battle of Britain air assaults by the German Luftwaffe on the RAF Fighter Command, and could especially mirror the results of the September 15th, 1940 “Battle of Britain Day” where the Germans lost a large number of planes attempting to take out the RAF to prepare for a Sea Lion invasion. It was shortly after this loss that the German generals finally convinced Hitler to abandon his plans for Operation Sea Lion. 8-)
Also, you guys might be interested to check out this website of Naval History that has tons of information on the Naval Campaigns of WWII:
http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1939-45Campaigns.htm -
@SAS:
I find it very cool that the game sets you up with basically the same options for Sea Lion that the Germans historically had. A G1 air assault on Great Britain to take out the 3 fighters they start with would mirror the Battle of Britain air assaults by the German Luftwaffe on the RAF Fighter Command, and could especially mirror the results of the September 15th, 1940 “Battle of Britain Day” where the Germans lost a large number of planes attempting to take out the RAF to prepare for a Sea Lion invasion. It was shortly after this loss that the German generals finally convinced Hitler to abandon his plans for Operation Sea Lion. 8-)
Also, you guys might be interested to check out this website of Naval History that has tons of information on the Naval Campaigns of WWII:
http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1939-45Campaigns.htmYes, but the only transport the Germans had were river barges, not the equivalent of 10 transports.
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What is the equivalent of 10 transports?
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@SAS:
What is the equivalent of 10 transports?
Definetly not river barges which could only carry 1 tank each and could be sunk by the wave created by a passing destroyer. I don’t think it’s even equivalent to 1 transport
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