Sealion inevitable?

[Seven_Patch]

@calvinhobbesliker:

I hope this game wasn’t created to be anti-British. If Sealion is successful(which it should never have been allowed to be), then the US does most of the fighting and has to “save” England. This seems to play into Americans’ misconceptions that we “saved” the allies.

Heh I always thought that was a funny messed up joke to tell to buddies from England.  “Yeah you bought me a beer?  Well we saved your asses in World War 2!”

Personally I like that Sea Lion is a possibility, by no means should it be a prime strategy, just a risky one that requires a lot to go right in order to work.  Once you start designing games to block strategies and pigeon holing a player into one strategy you really hurt the quality of the game.

[LHoffman]

@calvinhobbesliker:

This seems to play into Americans’ misconceptions that we “saved” the allies.

Well… we did.  :-D

[LHoffman]

@SgtBlitz:

You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done.  Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate.  Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn.  Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia.  So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5.  Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.

The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board.  If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.

I take a bit of issue with this plan. It seems to me that if you wanted to do a successful Sealion, it would have to be ASAP… meaning G2… NOT G3. If you wait till G3, that is all the more units Britain can buy. Unless you plan attacking England on G1 with the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately, this is sucidal for your aircraft without land unit support.

By G3/R3 Russia will be Godzilla sized… and they are going to need Japan to come bail them out somehow.

One thing I am curious about… why do you need to buy a DD and a SUB on G1? To me such units seem useless, especially in this situation. Why not buy more infantry or transports for G2/G3 attack? And by the time G4 rolls around, Germany should have more important things to deal with than reinforcing England; unless the Japs and Italians start bringing the war to the USSR… but even then…

[SilverAngelSurfer]

I find it very cool that the game sets you up with basically the same options for Sea Lion that the Germans historically had.  A G1 air assault on Great Britain to take out the 3 fighters they start with would mirror the Battle of Britain air assaults by the German Luftwaffe on the RAF Fighter Command, and could especially mirror the results of the September 15th, 1940 “Battle of Britain Day” where the Germans lost a large number of planes attempting to take out the RAF to prepare for a Sea Lion invasion.  It was shortly after this loss that the German generals finally convinced Hitler to abandon his plans for Operation Sea Lion. 8-)

Also, you guys might be interested to check out this website of Naval History that has tons of information on the Naval Campaigns of WWII:
http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1939-45Campaigns.htm

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SAS:

I find it very cool that the game sets you up with basically the same options for Sea Lion that the Germans historically had.  A G1 air assault on Great Britain to take out the 3 fighters they start with would mirror the Battle of Britain air assaults by the German Luftwaffe on the RAF Fighter Command, and could especially mirror the results of the September 15th, 1940 “Battle of Britain Day” where the Germans lost a large number of planes attempting to take out the RAF to prepare for a Sea Lion invasion.  It was shortly after this loss that the German generals finally convinced Hitler to abandon his plans for Operation Sea Lion. 8-)

Also, you guys might be interested to check out this website of Naval History that has tons of information on the Naval Campaigns of WWII:
http://www.naval-history.net/NAVAL1939-45Campaigns.htm

Yes, but the only transport the Germans had were river barges, not the equivalent of 10 transports.

[SilverAngelSurfer]

What is the equivalent of 10 transports?

[calvinhobbesliker]

@SAS:

What is the equivalent of 10 transports?

Definetly not river barges which could only carry 1 tank each and could be sunk by the wave created by a passing destroyer. I don’t think it’s even equivalent to 1 transport

[SilverAngelSurfer]

Oh, so you’re saying 1 transport piece in A&A is approximately equivalent to 10 WWII transport ships?

[LHoffman]

@calvinhobbesliker:

Yes, but the only transport the Germans had were river barges, not the equivalent of 10 transports.

Yeah, that is why the Germans will need to buy 10 transports if they want to do a Sealion… it’s not like they start out the game with 4+ transports.

[shohoku201]

@LHoffman:

@SgtBlitz:

You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done.  Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate.  Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn.  Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia.  So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5.  Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.

The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board.  If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.

I take a bit of issue with this plan. It seems to me that if you wanted to do a successful Sealion, it would have to be ASAP… meaning G2… NOT G3. If you wait till G3, that is all the more units Britain can buy. Unless you plan attacking England on G1 with the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately, this is sucidal for your aircraft without land unit support.

By G3/R3 Russia will be Godzilla sized… and they are going to need Japan to come bail them out somehow.

One thing I am curious about… why do you need to buy a DD and a SUB on G1? To me such units seem useless, especially in this situation. Why not buy more infantry or transports for G2/G3 attack? And by the time G4 rolls around, Germany should have more important things to deal with than reinforcing England; unless the Japs and Italians start bringing the war to the USSR… but even then…

How would you go about a G2 Sealion?  With a starting IPC of 30, I just don’t see it

[LHoffman]

@shohoku201:

How would you go about a G2 Sealion?  With a starting IPC of 30, I just don’t see it

Me neither… that is what I am saying. G2 would be extremely hard. G3 gets worse…

[Seven_Patch]

Germany probably has a better shot at invading Canada.  :evil:

[LHoffman]

@Seven_Patch:

Germany probably has a better shot at invading Canada.   :evil:

You kidding? … A WAY better shot… that’s something those Limey’s wouldn’t suspect!

Feint Sealion and go for Canada!  :evil:

[McMan]

G3 Canada Crush

[LHoffman]

@McMan:

G3 Canada Crush

Yeah… there probably won’t be much to Crush in Canada, but the Krauts will be overwhelming anyway.

[SgtBlitz]

@shohoku201:

@LHoffman:

@SgtBlitz:

You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done.  Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate.  Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn.  Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia.  So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5.  Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.

The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board.  If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.

I take a bit of issue with this plan. It seems to me that if you wanted to do a successful Sealion, it would have to be ASAP… meaning G2… NOT G3. If you wait till G3, that is all the more units Britain can buy. Unless you plan attacking England on G1 with the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately, this is sucidal for your aircraft without land unit support.

By G3/R3 Russia will be Godzilla sized… and they are going to need Japan to come bail them out somehow.

One thing I am curious about… why do you need to buy a DD and a SUB on G1? To me such units seem useless, especially in this situation. Why not buy more infantry or transports for G2/G3 attack? And by the time G4 rolls around, Germany should have more important things to deal with than reinforcing England; unless the Japs and Italians start bringing the war to the USSR… but even then…

How would you go about a G2 Sealion?  With a starting IPC of 30, I just don’t see it

All the trials we’ve done with the Global game so far show that Germany just doesn’t have the air/naval power to prevent the RAF and RCN from destroying the German Sealion fleet in SZ 112 on Round 1 without building an AC and at least one naval splash unit.  The DD/AC/TAC in SZ 91 plus the 3 FIGs in the UK is going to sink the Bismarck G1 (and any other boats nearby) unless you have an AC and 2 FIGs to beef SZ 112 up.  With only one or two TRNS available (at the most) for Sealion on G2 you just aren’t going to be able to attack the UK successfully (unless the UK does something stupid like building all boats UK1 or smth).  IF you really want to do the Sealion attack its going to have to happen on G3 with close to 10 TRNS to get units through to the 20 inf the UK has been building the entire time.

You MIGHT be able to pull it off G2 IF you send your entire airforce to destroy the 2 INF and 3 FIGs in the UK on G1, but that’s playing the odds a bit, plus the naval battles outside England HAVE to work entirely in your favor so the Brits don’t have more than one BB capable of reaching SZ 112 and destroying the transport fleet before it can sail G2.  Your airforce will also be so beaten up it might not even matter when it comes to the invasion on G2 anyway.  I’ve tried this and got diced fairly badly in England losing most of my Luftwaffe G1…  not the best idea around.

[LHoffman]

By G3 can’t the Americans bring ships into the channel and form some sort of a blockade? I mean, not that they would be of any tactical use, especially if they aren’t at war yet… but they’d prevent shore bombardments and they would make Germany bring the US into the war, perhaps earlier than they wanted to?

Is this at all possible? I have not looked at the map/rules/Sealion strategy to know if there is a way to preventt the US from doing this…

[calvinhobbesliker]

@LHoffman:

By G3 can’t the Americans bring ships into the channel and form some sort of a blockade? I mean, not that they would be of any tactical use, especially if they aren’t at war yet… but they’d prevent shore bombardments and they would make Germany bring the US into the war, perhaps earlier than they wanted to?

Is this at all possible? I have not looked at the map/rules/Sealion strategy to know if there is a way to preventt the US from doing this…

Powers neutral to each other can share the same sea zone

[SgtBlitz]

So, basically, all the US would be doing is watching the friendly neutral Jerries blow the crap up out of London G3 from the Channel (you couldn’t drop off land units to help either).  The next turn, however, would contain shenanigans.

[LHoffman]

Ah… so if the US in in a sea zone w/ a British ship and Jerry wants to do an amphib in that sea zone… they can ignore the US ship? That doesn’t make much sense to me…