An interesting comparison for sure! Thanks for sharing.
Russia and Germany allies
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I would rather say that Japan was after regional domination (regional as in asiatic, which is still a lot!).
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Agreed! I’m not a perfect historian but at times as i said, i really wonder where people get their info from!
Thoes426 :evil: -
What are treaties/pacts if not attempts to keep another country from attacking you as long as possible (or until you’re ready to attack them)?
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The fact that UK and USA were allied with USSR (which wasn’t at all a democracy…) is against this theory, plus the fact that nor UK nor USA were fighting for the liberty of Africa or Asia. In fact, before the war broke out, nobody would have believed that USA, UK and USSR woul become allies.
This is one of the ironies which Richard Overy points out in his book Why the Allies Won: the fact that the victory of the democratic Allied nations like Britain and the United States over Nazi Germany owes much to Germany’s defeat on land on the Eastern Front by Communist Russia. He argues that the US, the UK and the USSR all saw their wartime partnership as a temporary confluence of interests (the shared need to destroy Hitler), and that it didn’t last much longer than what was necessary to do the job.
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Given the fact that the Soviet Union now dosnt have to attack the Germans on turn 4 means that perhapse you could see the Soviets leaving the Allies out to dry and being something of a ally
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the U.S.S.R was planing on invading Nazi territory. Also germany was planing on doing the same. the reason why the both waited was to military perpare themselfs superior than the other. another thing was that germans need raw materials for operation sealion which the russians traded for military equipment. the germans just decided move first and take the russians by surprise which they did
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If Hitler did not decide to invade SU the last 60 years would have been very different.
Europe would probably has become a german territory, with perhaps Great Britain independent, Portugal, Spain and Swisss half independent and the east controlled by SU (Lituania, Letonia, Estonia,Finland, half of Poland).
The cold war would have been between USA and Germany with two other smaller players: China and SU.
And lets say things as they are: in 2010 the two nations that in terms of economy rule the world are USA and Germany.
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I would rather say that Japan was after regional domination (regional as in asiatic, which is still a lot!).
Imperial Japan’s the subject of my thesis, and I’ve read a number of sources from powerful figures in Japan as early as the 1910s all up to 1940s who’ve directly cited world domination as a goal. It was even a saying that the world should be made into provinces of Japan for the emperor. So, I think time frame is important to the discussion. Japan really wasn’t immediately gunning for the world in WWII, in fact Southeast Asia was its only real goal. Other ambitions were purely for operational reasons. Japan didn’t want Wake to have Wake, it wanted Wake to slow down the Americans. But, I’m sure many of the powers that be dreamed of eventual world conquest. How seriously to take this is questionable. Prince Konoe could rant as much as he wanted about Japan taking over the entire world. I certainly don’t think anyone in the government or military seriously intended on world conquest on an immediate scope of time. Mostly they wanted modern Malaysia and Indonesia.
Hitler even could talk about Aryans dominating the world as much as he wanted, I doubt the National Socialists really thought WWII would result in World Conquest with capitol letters. I think they mostly had the goal of dominating Eastern Europe, as Italy the Mediterranean. I’m less familiar with their internal politics, though, to be fair.
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Shouldn’t this belong in the WWII forum? :\
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It should, but something quite stupid has been wrote and I’ve decided I must answer to it.
@Tralis:
Global domination is usually more a goal than anything else. I’m in roman history, and when they say that they dominate the entire world and that they are restitutor orbis (avenger, protector, of the world), it is propaganda more than anything else.But still, when you think your leader comes from the Moon goddess, you’ve got to believe that you’re supposed to dominate the world 8-)
@MegaEinstein
Making ‘if history’ is probably one of the most dangerous and counterproductive thing in the world. -
At least in Japan’s case, world conquest sort of seemed like the plan you and your buddy always talk about only when intoxicated. We all know that sort of plan, like “We should totally start a store that sells X”.
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The Romans were only interested in dominating developed areas of the World. Attempts to occupy areas inhabited by primitive savages, such as Germany and Scotland, were only a show of force as these places were not worth the cost of occupying.
Japan had the same policy towards China; they only took over the main towns and trade routes. The overwhelmingly rural interior was left to the Chinese.
Another parallel can be found in American attempts to control Viet Nam & Afghanistan. A show of force was/is needed to maintain political credibility, without any real belief that they could/can “win” in the long term.
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Talking about ifs, if the spanish and the portuguese did not colonize the american continent, teaching how to read, developing the continent…
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Yeah, but the parts of America the Hispanics conquered were more developed than they were.
Tenochtitlan made Madrid look like a small cluster of hovels.
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At least in Japan’s case, world conquest sort of seemed like the plan you and your buddy always talk about only when intoxicated. We all know that sort of plan, like “We should totally start a store that sells X”.
In their book “Victory at Sea: World War II in the Pacific,” James Dunnigan and Albert Nofi mention that because the Japanese Army had so many men and resources committed to its ongoing war in China, the expansionist offensives launched by Japan in the Pacific and Southeast Asia in 1941 and 1942 were shoestring operations for which it had to make do with the comparatively small forces it was able to scrape together for those campaigns. And in 1944 and 1945, when Japan was in desperate need to shore up its positions in the Pacific and South-East Asia in the face of the advancing Americans, it had to draw more and more troops from its Kwangtung Army in China to do so. This in turn led to a considerable weakening of Japan’s position in China, and partly explains the quick Russian gains in Manchuria once the Soviet Union declared war on Japan in August 1945. So it can be argued that, since it was already hard enough for Japan to hold the line in China while simultaneously fulfilling its territorial ambitions in the Pacific and South-East Asia, it’s difficult to see how it would have had the resources to succeed in an attempt at world conquest. It’s possible that some elements of the Japanese military may have dreamed of something along those lines, but as a practical ambition it would hardly have been realistic.
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Well, how could all this apply to aa game?
AA games are ifs in history. So if anyone thinks that is too dangerous talking about ifs in history, that i really do not understand why not, those persons should not play AA.
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Yeah, but the parts of America the Hispanics conquered were more developed than they were.
Tenochtitlan made Madrid look like a small cluster of hovels.
Even the cruelty of the Spaniards and the Inquisition pales in comparison to the Aztecs. They had mountains of skulls from human sacrifices that were meant to keep the sun coming up every day. They would attack other tribes just for prisoners to sacrifice. And seriously, pulling someone’s heart out while they are still alive is just sick.
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If Hitler did not decide to invade SU the last 60 years would have been very different.
Europe would probably has become a german territory, with perhaps Great Britain independent, Portugal, Spain and Swisss half independent and the east controlled by SU (Lituania, Letonia, Estonia,Finland, half of Poland).
The cold war would have been between USA and Germany with two other smaller players: China and SU.
And lets say things as they are: in 2010 the two nations that in terms of economy rule the world are USA and Germany.
1. Stalin had plans to eventually attack Germany anyway. The only thing that would’ve differed about the attack would be which side and when. It certainly wouldn’t have taken 60 years to do it.
2. The Cold War was largely about the spread of communism, so who’s to say that US and Germany wouldn’t have been united against the commies? That’s too hard to really predict.
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Much of the topic in the this thread have been discussed before.
If Germany and Russia was allies like UK and France, the WW2 would be very different, where Russia and Germany would have everything except the American continent and perhaps Japan and the pacific.
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Neither I believe wouldn’t have ‘won’ the war, they both hated each other to much, Hitler didn’t trust Stalin and Stalin didn’t trust Hitler, plus within a few more years had Stalin been given enough time probably himself would have invaded Germany, and with a much larger population and stronger industrial capacity. The Russians would have won either way, an historically of course they did win.
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