Bid System

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I was never a fan of bids. That’s because I thought me and my friend were experts at the game and figured it was the inexperienced players that were coming up with this. I now realize that a. we’re idiots and b. the axis really do need a bid system.

Part of our problem was never doing the Rd 1 Russian attack on Ukraine. We both tried it a long time ago and abandoned it because it went horrible for both of us, but recently we reintroduced and it’s now a standard move. Another we “discovered” that is probably common knowledge to many of you, is the US can be shucking 4 loaded transports as early as round 3 into Africa every single round. (We were over building on Trans and not utilizing the Canada to Africa 1 sea zone shuck).

With these late discovers Axis haven’t even come close to winning. Germany cannot get anything going at all and Japan is just too slow, even when they’re unopposed.

So I’d like to know if you use bids, and if so, what do you use? We’re thinking Germany needs at least 10 ipcs for a fighting chance, but with restrictions on placing too much in Ukraine.

[Hobbes]

I haven’t used a bid yet on AA42 and the R1 attack on Ukr is standard since Revised.

The Allies have a disadvantage on AA42 which is that their transports can’t be used as fodder against G air attacks, plus the starting German subs are immune from air attacks until there are destroyers around.

Buy a bomber for G on G1, sink UK’s SZ2 BB and TRN and the Med CA and DD and take Egypt (you can do all unless you get bad dice) and it will be until turn 3 or 4 before the Allies can land on Europe. Send all the Japanese planes to Europe and the Allies will have to take an even bigger effort to protect their fleets.

Let the US land their 8 units on Africa: if Southern and Western Europe are secured against allied landings (the Jap planes came handy on that, since they can redeploy before the US plays) then it will take them a long time to reach Jordan/Persia and by then the Japanese will be ready to deal with them.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

As far as I’m concerned, 1 bomber isn’t enough to slow down early allied naval builds. Germany can’t afford to lose their air force, and they will if they attack a navy that has 2 loaded carriers. Then they allies can buy just transports. If there’s a bunch of Japanese planes in Germany, then that means too much effort is being spent keeping Germany alive, especially if Japan is dealing with the US in Africa. What is happening to Russia? In our games they makes 30 ipcs give or take every single round, and GER makes mid -high 30s. How can they put any pressure on Russia ever with another 70 ipcs totally devoted to their desctruction? I haven’t seen a tank stack in months, half your inf is guarding your coastlines, and access to Africa is cut off around rd 3.

[Hobbes]

@Col.Stauffenberg:

As far as I’m concerned, 1 bomber isn’t enough to slow down early allied naval builds. Germany can’t afford to lose their air force, and they will if they attack a navy that has 2 loaded carriers. Then they allies can buy just transports. If there’s a bunch of Japanese planes in Germany, then that means too much effort is being spent keeping Germany alive, especially if Japan is dealing with the US in Africa. What is happening to Russia? In our games they makes 30 ipcs give or take every single round, and GER makes mid -high 30s. How can they put any pressure on Russia ever with another 70 ipcs totally devoted to their desctruction? I haven’t seen a tank stack in months, half your inf is guarding your coastlines, and access to Africa is cut off around rd 3.

1 extra bomber is more than enough against early naval builds. If you move the 2 G subs to SZ7 on G1 then you’ll have 2/3 fighters, 2 bombers and 2 subs to threaten any british build up on the SZs bordering the UK. If the UK builds 1 AC, 2 DDs it won’t have much spaces left to build them:

SZ3 - Risky. can be hit with 2/3 fighters and 2 bombers against 1 AC, 1 DD + 2 FTRs (assuming UK places 1 DD on SZ6 to block the subs), odds favor the Germans.
SZ2 - Can only be hit with 1 fighter and 2 bombers (assuming UK places 1 DD on SZ8 to block the subs), the Germans can use 1 sub to sink the lonely DD.
SZ8 - The more defensible position (with the US CA to provide extra protection). Can be attacked with 2 subs, 1/2  fighters and 2 bombers.

And any sea units moved to SZ12 to land units on Algeria on UK1 and US1 will be sunk with zero or minimal cost to the Germans.

Only 2 ACs (1 UK, 1 US) are not enough to provide protection against both German and Japanese AFs positioned on Western Europe. If the UK moves its fleet to a different position then they will expose themselves or the US boats to Japan’s planes. And the Axis planes on Western Europe can hit any US transports doing the shuck-shuck from the US coast to SZ9. The Allies need at least a 3rd loaded AC to protect SZ9 and/or plenty of DDs.

The 70 income against G is relative. For the first 3 turns nearly all of that income will need to go to building transports, ACs, DDs and planes to guard against the German AF and subs. If you secure W.Eur then that’s less 6 IPCs that the UK gets, meaning more time required for them to build a fleet capable of defending itself. And if by turn 4 most or nearly all Japanese AF reaches Europe, then more money will have to be spent on defending naval escorts.
UK’s income will be something like this: UK1 30, UK2 24-26 (with less India and less Egypt and no Norway), UK3 something close to UK2, after that really depends. This will severely limit any landings on Europe up to UK4 and G can use that window to fortify Europe.

With Russia you only need to trade Karelia, Bielo and Ukr. You can retain Norway by moving tanks there to prevent the Allies from taking it during that period. Depending on the UK/US moves you might also be able to secure Karelia, as long as you don’t lose W. or S. Europe.

Meanwhile Japan needs also to be advancing towards Russia, there will be stalls on either of the 3 routes (FIC-India-Persia, China-Sinkiang, Bur-Yak) but as long as you prevent massive Russian tank counterattacks you will be slowly reducing its IPCs while massing forces to threaten Nov, Kaz and Evenki. And meanwhile keeping 1 or 2 transports on FIC to take UK territories will also work nicely.

Above all, keep an eye on the production level: if the Axis are making more than 80 IPCs per turn then you are going the right way and time is in your side.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I still don’t see if this would work without a bid system, although I haven’t tried sending all the Japanese planes to Germany. I have sent a couple but that’s it. We’re playing on friday (with a bid) but I’ll try to send the planes as well.  I usually don’t buy a bomber as Germany but I’ll try that too.

[Hobbes]

Try it with a lower bid (3-5) than you mentioned. Just 6 IPCs allow G to get another sub and completely sink the UK Navy.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

@Hobbes:

Try it with a lower bid (3-5) than you mentioned. Just 6 IPCs allow G to get another sub and completely sink the UK Navy.

I’m going to be playing the Axis so I’m ok with the extra 10 ipc placement. I have a feeling you might be right though. 10 seems too much. You could get the Uk down to a pawltry income in only two rounds. But my friend thinks they need it so we’ll play it out.

I was going to do 1 sub in Atlantic and 1 art in Libya, but I think I might go 1 inf, 1 art in Libya and 1 Inf in Ukraine.

[Hobbes]

@Col.Stauffenberg:

I’m going to be playing the Axis so I’m ok with the extra 10 ipc placement. I have a feeling you might be right though. 10 seems too much. You could get the Uk down to a pawltry income in only two rounds. But my friend thinks they need it so we’ll play it out.

I was going to do 1 sub in Atlantic and 1 art in Libya, but I think I might go 1 inf, 1 art in Libya and 1 Inf in Ukraine.

Using a bid is a good way to balance a skilled vs. an unskilled player so if you both feel the need then go for it.

I’d still say 8-9 IPCs for the Axis, because that’s the usual bid on Revised but whatever. Let us know how the game went afterwards.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

Okay, I tried your moves and although we didn’t finish, it didn’t look good for the axis, even with a bid. I bought a bomber but it only replaced the one that got shot down attacking the UK navy. I sunk it but it was mutual. I was only able to send one Japanese plane because I had to keep retaking my coastline (he took French Indo). This kept me busy for four rounds. By then, America’s navy had amassed in SZ12 and UK was landing in Karelia. I messed up some plane placement so he was able to build 1 round sooner but I don’t see how that one round delay is going to stop Germany from having to defend the Southern, Western, and Eastern plus advancing on Russia.

We’re going to try again on Friday but with me as the allies.

[Granada]

Hobbes, you should show him our game from yesterday. Admittedly, i could have played better, and i got diced on R1 ukr attack, but i would not say it had an overall impact. Your axis looks much likely side to win at this point. In spite of me sending 8 US troops to Africa a round, 7-8 UK troops to Europe. Russia is just hanging, Germany controlls all the three western teritories with tons of inf and planes and has increadible army with 12 tanks and even more inf in caucasus – R6. Although all the stats are still even, axis looks much more likely side to win now. I would also say there is no bid necessary. I would definitely not ask for it if i play axis.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I played as the allies and my friend was the axis with the ten ipc bid. Destroyed him by round 4.

I would like to see the game you guys are playing because I see no way for the Axis to win anymore.

[Zhukov44]

I think it’s too early to tell if a bid (b/w equal skill levels) will be needed but if it is it won’t be more than 5.  With a 6 sub bid, Axis could go ahead and target the 10 fleet or use the sub to destroy UK’s remaining transport….Allies shouldn’t be able to come back from that.

[Hobbes]

@Col.Stauffenberg:

I played as the allies and my friend was the axis with the ten ipc bid. Destroyed him by round 4.

I would like to see the game you guys are playing because I see no way for the Axis to win anymore.

Other than really exceptional dice and/or bad moves I can’t see the Axis losing by round 4 with a 10 IPC bid.

Do you use TripleA? I can play a game with you as Allies one of these days.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I neglected to mention that he had horrible rolls on every fight, but it still wouldn’t have changed the Atlantic theater. And when I said lose, I was referring to him conceeding. We almost never play until a capital falls or by victory cities. We’ve played enough times to know it’s over when one team can no longer mount an offense. Germany had to turtle round 4 and Japan wasn’t anywhere near threatening Russia.

I’d want to play AAA but it seems like it’s hard to set up. I have trouble getting that kind of stuff to work. (Plus I don’t have a working network connection at home right now). I’d love to see what you’re doing with the axis.

[Hobbes]

@Col.Stauffenberg:

I neglected to mention that he had horrible rolls on every fight, but it still wouldn’t have changed the Atlantic theater. And when I said lose, I was referring to him conceeding. We almost never play until a capital falls or by victory cities. We’ve played enough times to know it’s over when one team can no longer mount an offense. Germany had to turtle round 4 and Japan wasn’t anywhere near threatening Russia.

I’d want to play AAA but it seems like it’s hard to set up. I have trouble getting that kind of stuff to work. (Plus I don’t have a working network connection at home right now). I’d love to see what you’re doing with the axis.

Against consecutive bad rolls there’s much you can do other than praying that the other side will experience the same bad luck during a critical battle. I also agree that most times the game will be decided because of the general situation on the board rather than VCs or capturing capitals.

Usually my strategy with the Axis is based on this: Reach and keep an overall income of 84 or higher each turn for both Axis, while preventing as much as possible for the Allies to retake lost territories.

There are 2 factors here, first one is the individual production level and the other is the overall income earned at the end of the US turn. Overall, there are 166 IPCs spread out through the board and the difference between both sides is 26 (Allies start with 96, Axis with 70). This may look easier than it seems since the Axis need only to conquer 13 IPCs worth of territories but if the Allies retake some of them then they will keep their economic advantage. This is why keeping count of total money at the end of the US turn is important.
Imagine that at the end of round 3 the Axis have reached a total income of 84 but the Allies got 103 by reconquering some territories. The Axis are doing OK but the Allies are still doing better. But the Axis can do a few things to make it easier:

• Fortify W. Europe against any combined UK/US attack. I used to let go of WEur on Revised but here it is crucial because of the 12 IPC swing. You mentioned the turtle strategy for G and if I recall correctly it is a Revised strategy for when Allied pressure on G starts to be intense. Here you need to go turtle from round 1 and prevent as much as possible for the Allies to take European territories (specially the UK for reasons mentioned later).
• Hold to Norway until rounds 3 or 4. It can be a challenge but if you bring 2 inf on round 1 to Norway and later move a few tanks there you can pretty much prevent the US/UK from taking it due to the time it takes to build fleets. Of course, if you hold too many tanks there the Russians might get kinky and move all their army to Ukraine, but there won’t be any other Allied support for them other than planes and you can always retake Karelia and bring back your tanks to E. Europe to stop their advance.
• Spend as much money in infantry as possible but keep a large Panzer force ready (12-15). My usual buy from round 2 onwards is 9 inf and 3 armor or all infantry buys. You will need to secure S. Europe against any US attacks in order to be able to produce more than 10 units and the Japanese fighters can really make a difference here: if the UK hasn’t attacked W. Europe then you will be able to move them to protect S. Europe, if the US has a large fleet parked on SZ12.
• Take as much of Africa as possible until overwhelming US pressure forces you to back away from Egypt. This will seriously bring down UK’s production level, combined with the loss of India and not being able to take Norway/W. Eur. I’ve had games where the UK income drops to 18 or less by round 4 or 5, which makes it a pain to build an adequate fleet to make landings on Europe. This will also divert large numbers of US troops to Africa where they will no other use other than retaking and defending it, while not interfering in Europe during the critical initial rounds.
• During J1 try if possible to load and send its lone transport to SZ36 (if it can’t be sunk by the UK sub or planes), instead of using it to attack Buryatia or land units on Manchuria. I usually also have 5-6 transports for Japan and keep always 1 to 3 on SZ36 where they can either reinforce Egypt or attack Australia (another important target with its 2 IPCs), if necessary.
• Japan only needs an IC after its production level reaches more than 40+. With 5-6 transports you can offload into Asia/Africa any amount of units built there plus empty the islands of their infantry.
• If the Allies are getting ready to sink G’s Med navy, bring it to the Indian Ocean on G3. Most likely you will need to take both Egypt and Jordan on G2/J2 and prevent any Russian counterattack. Then on G3 move it southwards to threaten South Africa and/or take Madagascar. Using the navy against Ukraine/Caucasus is risky because of the Allied planes from G1 afterwards  and sending a Japanese ships can be even more risky if the US retakes Egypt, leaving those units trapped on the Med.

I hope this helps.

[Zhukov44]

Interesting post Hobbes.

From your description it sounds like the optimal Axis strat is not all that different from the optimal Axis strat in Revised…there’s just the adjustment for the increased importance of air, subs, acs, and destroyers, along with the decreased power of the transport as an all-around unit.  In my first impressions of the game I had thought that a tank rush was a more promising strategy for Axis due to the Allies needing more time to build up their transport fleets, but in our low luck game you were able to stop me, and Fleetwood Dan was able to stop me as well, so tank rush is 1-2 against experts which doesn’t bode well, even if its a small sample.

Having invested everything in tanks from round 3 on, my game-plan was shot, which leads me to conclude that air/inf buys for several more rounds might be the superior/safer strategy.  This is similar to Revised, except that in Spring 42 air buys pay off more, while in Revised it wasn’t usually necessary to buy additional air unless there was a Pacific battle.

Africa seems to be the critical piece in the puzzle, but I find it harder to find viable strategies in Africa due to having no Africa bid, and that the German fleet should be dead on Uk2, if not R2.  On the other hand, the Allies should struggle to keep a fleet alive in 12 in addition to somewhere off Northern Europe, so maybe it’s easier in Spring 42 for the Japs to conquer Africa if the Allies decide to KGF.

It will be interesting to see whether a USA Pac offensive will be necessary to complicate Japan’s life or whether the Revised KGF shuck strategy (supplemented with many acs) will be sufficient.

[Hobbes]

I dislike tank rushes quite a bit because they are a good surprise strategy against someone who isn’t ready for them but quite costly against a player who knows how to deal with them because of the overall net loss in terms on economics.

Africa is really the key and thus I mentioned that Japan should bring 1 transport to SZ36 to keep the pressure on the UK even if the G navy is sunk on R2. Of course this can limit Japan’s choices on J1, which can lead to better chances for the US on a Pacific strat. The alternative is to give Axis time where they can position themselves against Russia and Japan sending their planes to Europe, which can lead to more delays in getting a foothold on the continent.

It’s really a matter for the US to decide on US1. Sometimes it might be better to go KGF, sometimes Pacific, I’m still trying to figure out when is Pacific worth it.

[Col.Stauffenberg]

Thanks for that lengthy post Hobbes but I didn’t learn much new in it. We pretty much do everything you said or at least tried it at some point. One thing you said that I don’t agree with is that those Americans that are landing in Africa (my way has four loaded trans landing every round beginning at round 2) don’t have anything to do, or something along those lines. The initial wave just marches and, this is key to why I don’t think Germany has a chance anymore, stops the Japanese from closing the channel and bringing their navy to the Med. They occupy Japan from threatening Russia if they’re fighting for Africa/trying to protect Germany, and they continuely threaten Italy, France and can reinforce Caucus at any time.

You mention stuff like holding Norway, and to start turtling on round 1 with all inf buys but you also mention having 15 tanks, all by round four. Does Russia not attack you or something? Lately they’ve been aggressive and it pays off. They usually make between 31 and 34 every round now. They alone can spread Germany thin. They usually trade the Balkans now. And making money in Africa is never a given, even with a bid. We’re going to try again on friday with me as the axis. I’m going to try and hold Norway and see how that goes, as well as trying some new things as Japan, like pearl light.

[Hobbes]

@Col.Stauffenberg:

Thanks for that lengthy post Hobbes but I didn’t learn much new in it. We pretty much do everything you said or at least tried it at some point. One thing you said that I don’t agree with is that those Americans that are landing in Africa (my way has four loaded trans landing every round beginning at round 2) don’t have anything to do, or something along those lines. The initial wave just marches and, this is key to why I don’t think Germany has a chance anymore, stops the Japanese from closing the channel and bringing their navy to the Med. They occupy Japan from threatening Russia if they’re fighting for Africa/trying to protect Germany, and they continuely threaten Italy, France and can reinforce Caucus at any time.

If G has both Western and Southern Europe fortified against an US attack using those 4 transports then the only option for the US troops is to clear Africa and try to advance to Persia, or switch them to attack Norway. The problem is the long supply lines to reach Persia/Caucasus when compared with Japan’s and so many US troops being used to clear Africa is not an optimal use of resources.
If you land 4 loaded transports on US3 on Algeria the infantry will only reach Persia by US7. The tanks can rush in to retake Egypt and Africa but without infantry they are vulnerable to Japanese counterattacks using their fleet. The option to speed this up is to move a US fleet to the Med but that means more money needed for fleet protection by the US.
I hardly move the Japanese fleet nowadays to the Med because of the risk of it being cut off and to use it to protect transports on the Indian Ocean. It is nice to have it available to strike Italy’s SZ while possible since it will help deter any US attacks there until the Germans can fortify it.

You mention stuff like holding Norway, and to start turtling on round 1 with all inf buys but you also mention having 15 tanks, all by round four. Does Russia not attack you or something? Lately they’ve been aggressive and it pays off. They usually make between 31 and 34 every round now. They alone can spread Germany thin. They usually trade the Balkans now. And making money in Africa is never a given, even with a bid. We’re going to try again on friday with me as the axis. I’m going to try and hold Norway and see how that goes, as well as trying some new things as Japan, like pearl light.

You are right about Russia getting aggressive (I think Russia is the most fun and demanding country to play because they can punch hard if the Axis lets them) but to get 31 to 34 IPCs requires a bit: all of the initial territories plus Bielorussia, Ukraine and Norway/Manchuria/Balkans. Keeping Yakut/Soviet FE and Buryatia is close to impossible, unless the Japanese are screwing up. Norway used to be easier to take (but that’s money not going to the UK) while taking Manchuria also requires Japan making serious errors on J1. The move to Ukraine is nice but that will mean not having the Russian tanks available to check the Japanese advance on Sinkiang/Yakut, plus Germany can make a large tank buy right afterwards to force them out.

I’m probably saying more stuff that you know already. Maybe it’s me who is not getting the right picture about what the Allies can do, I’d sure like to have a game against you someday :)

[Col.Stauffenberg]

I’m trying to download triple A right now but not having any luck.