I think it’s every bit as unrealistic to expect any kind of Chinese action against Germany. If Japan is out of the game, you should probably assume China goes back to resolving its own civil war.
Excellent, we are of the same mind. This of course would only be until Germany attacks it (like a separate declaration of war). Then China should be able to fight Germany just as it did against Japan with the same restrictions.
Why should China work under the same rules as other powers, when it was not in the same situation as other powers? China was not an industrialized nation like the other powers. The other powers were not in the midst of a full-blown civil war, as China was. I agree that the game should not be scripted to follow history exactly. There should be room for what-ifs. However, it also should not include elements that are complete fantasy
I agree with this. You should include difficult terrain rules for China: tanks and air units should have their movement reduced by one if enter, move or exit from China since is a non industrial country
Also, to prevent fantasy scenarios, delete the ACME wall as well. China was at war with Japan. If Japan had some troops in FIC or Korea or Novo (fanatay anyone? :lol: ) and China had enough force to kill them, you can bet your pants China would attack, it’s a war after all, even if a three sides war (KMT vs Mao vs Japan). If you want simulate chinese civil war there are other ways: the reduced income China has is a way (no way in real life of Japan outproducing China in terms of manpower as does in A&A). Other option is rolling after combat move is done: if China attacks out of China (or moves in NCM) roll one die, with a 6 China don’t attacks due civil war. Other option is split chinese income in two (commies and KMT), make a new maoist sculpt and don’t let commies and KMT mix … and delete the fantasy ACME wall
The Flying Tigers were not chinese (by your own statemens), so the ACME limitation should not include them
Chinese coast were … chinese, you know … the FT should attack lone trannies at least at chinese coast
Face it, Krieg: ACME wall is the fantasy scenario, jap tanks rushing for China is the fantasy scenario, chinese jedi lightsabres destroying ICs is the fantasy scenario, Japan having more air units than China total units and producing more inf than China is the fantasy scenario, Mongolian ACME walls is the fantasy scenario and all that stuff that lets gamey strats happen (as bombers parked in Korea laughing of chinese forces that are going to be uberbombed next round just because a fantasy rules don’t let them attack). It’s not elegant, in fact is the worst rule made in any A&A game. China is not well represented in any A&A game and ACME wall is just the opposite way the things should go
Funcioneta, my Italian compadre, I soo agree with you. China should be able to attack Japanese units outside Chinese home territory. In fact, Chines units did cross the Yalu river and combat-moved into Korea in 27 june 1950 just to attack some enemy forces there.
I dont think the Chinese commies need a specific sculpt. Just use the russian one. As a matter of fact, the Chinese civil war (whats so civil about war anyway?) was not a civil war between chinese, it was in fact a Russian attack on China. Mao was Stalin’s b!tch, he was paid and trained by Stalin, and he jumped when Stalin told him to.
THIS IS A MATTER OF FACTS.
So what we got is a 3-party proxy war. Stalin start the game with one treaty with Hitler and another treaty with Japan. Stalin then attack China and make it look like a civil war, just to not p!ss off USA wich is allied to China. Looks complicated butt is gettin better.
In fact, Chines units did cross the Yalu river and combat-moved into Korea in 27 june 1950 just to attack some enemy forces there.
While this may be a fact it does not apply to World War II and the political situation of the time. China’s current rulers for the most part were in control at this time so of course then they would have expansionist feelings.
Your comparing Apples to Oranges by the attack they did during the Korean War.
Sean
I do not accept the premise that because China wouldn’t have done this or that, we will make a rule that China can’t do this or that. If this is true, then there should never be a KGF strategy. The US would never have ignored Japan for months (years) while it dove into Europe only. On the other hand, I’m not asking to see a set of Chinese battleships and aircraft carriers from Wizards either. I think letting China go into any Asian territory is as close to reality as KGF or KJF.
Lol, if your in a position as China to invade Korea, I think the game is already over anyway.
Historically, Chinese forces were made up of several different types of components, unlike Western or Japanese armies. Other than the better organized Nationalist and Communist armies, most of the Chinese army consisted of and was heavily dependent on local and regional militias. Both parties were always vying for control of these forces which were only interested in defending their own territory and would have no interest in marching into another country.
It’s interesting to note that in the foreign territories in the game where the Chinese army is allowed to operate, the Nationalist army was withdrawn before the conclusion of the campaign to the detriment of their US/UK allies.
I think this restriction is actually historically accurate.
Right, but if we have a Chinese special rule, then we need French Vichy special rule and Italian surrender special rules too. Just to make the game more realistic.
If Japan had some troops in FIC or Korea or Novo (fanatay anyone? ) and China had enough force to kill them, you can bet your pants China would attack, it’s a war after all, even if a three sides war (KMT vs Mao vs Japan).
Riiiight. And which side would attack? You don’t think that if the Nationalist or Communist Chinese over-extended themselves to attack Japan for little gain that the other party wouldn’t stab them in the back for their efforts?
If you want simulate chinese civil war there are other ways: the reduced income China has is a way (no way in real life of Japan outproducing China in terms of manpower as does in A&A).
But it’s not just manpower. A unit of Infantry in the game does not simulate X number of troops. It represents trained, armed, and equipped soldiers. Yes, China had the bigger population, but trained armed, and fighting troops?
Other option is rolling after combat move is done: if China attacks out of China (or moves in NCM) roll one die, with a 6 China don’t attacks due civil war. Other option is split chinese income in two (commies and KMT), make a new maoist sculpt and don’t let commies and KMT mix … and delete the fantasy ACME wall
Neither of your proposed rules would add any fun to the game. As stated, the current rules are elegant enough to get the point across without overly complicated methods such as rolling a die after each combat.
It’s not elegant, in fact is the worst rule made in any A&A game. China is not well represented in any A&A game and ACME wall is just the opposite way the things should go
Really? The worst rule ever? To date it is the best representation of China and Chinese forces without undue complications that detract from the game. It’s much better than in Classic or Revised where China was owned by America and America would funnel all of its income into factories it created there.
All that said, there are things called “House Rules”. Please don’t try and change the streamlined rules for all of us because you like the extra complications.
Funcioneta, my Italian compadre
I’m spanish, dude! What part of “Tío Paco” cannot understand you? :lol:
Really? The worst rule ever? To date it is the best representation of China and Chinese forces without undue complications that detract from the game. It’s much better than in Classic or Revised where China was owned by America and America would funnel all of its income into factories it created there.
Classic or Revised had no rules at all about China, I’m saying a rule, not China as total entity. And the ACME wall is a very bad rule, I cannot remind any worst than that in A&A, mainly because there are very few bad rules in this game (the capital sacking is the 2nd worst)
You are true, if chinamen arrive to Korea, Japan is toast anyway, but the game is not historical at that point (where the soviets the ones conquering Manchuria, not the chineses). What purpose serves that rule? Give Japan a undeserved prize? Why should Japan have gamey spots where feel safe from attacks?
The fact is that Larry doesn’t know what to do with China, each game from old AAP has changed the rules (by the way, that game had not the ACME wall, just a useless restriction about loading chinamen on allied trannies - why that restriction anyway if by then Japan was toasted anyway?). In AA50 China is a total mess and a mayor source of unbalance. Now Larry had moved a bit in the good direction in AAP40 letting them buy artillery and giving a real army, but that silly ACME wall is growing to neutrals! :x If I see the ACME wall again in AAE40 uncle Paco is going to get mad! :-D You can bet your lucky hat that Franco would retaliate any that attacked Spain …
While the fact that the Chinese went into Korea 5 years after the war and after the end of the Civil War is indeed not pertinent to a WWII game, there is no reason why Chinese units should not be permitted in the areas they ACTUALLY served during the war. This was partially rectified with the inclusion of Burma in the places they could go, but they not only served in India and French Indochina during the war, but it was Nationalist Chinese forces that took the Japanese surrender in what would become Vietnam, and this is one of the destabilizing factors that created a vaccuum which made French reoccupation more difficult. The Chinese 5th army served in the Imphal area after its withdrawal from Burma, so it was there too. Maybe restrict how many of their troops they can take into these areas, but saying that they cannot go there at all is literally ahistorical and there need be no theorizing about it. Chinese troops served and died in both places during the war. I’m sure the ones who did would say “Uh yeah…we were able to go there long enough to get shot, doesnt that count?”
If you allow China to go into any tt it would not be good for game play. You could end up w/China def India, The Mid East, or Russian soil once they were pushed out of China. They will at some point be pushed out of China if allowed to retreat elsewhere. Hell in rare occasions you might even see them track all the way into German/Italian tt or Africa. So watch what you ask for. As it is now you can keep China in the game (or bring them back) with help of the allies depending on what Jap does. In the global game you should be able to bring in Russian (Communist) units to aid in China’s def. Personally I hope that if Russian ground units are brought in that they can’t leave Chinese soil. That would make Russia think twice about committing a large force to China. IMO China will play out much better in the global game. Its already a major improvement over AA50.
The solution then would be let chinamen attack any axis controled territories or hostile szs but not letting them enter allied territory in NCMs phase
If there is a soviet NO as the one in AA50 or if there is some rule that prevents allies enter USSR in NCMs, that is solved as well
But anyway you are going to see odd things if axis must win the game. No sense making artificial ACME walls all the landscape
The solution then would be let chinamen attack any axis controled territories or hostile szs but not letting them enter allied territory in NCMs phase
This I could go along with (other then Burma & Kwang of coarse). It would keep China’s interests in Asia or Siberia mostly. It could be weird though say Jap makes the long trek through Siberia to Moscow, just to have China following them to take back vacant Russian tt. The same could hold true all the way through the Mid East into Africa. At least these would be conquest, not retreats.
I don’t know, maybe keeping the Chinese in China is the best. Maybe just allow them to attack just 1 tt/sz beyond their boarders would be better.
If there is a soviet NO as the one in AA50 or if there is some rule that prevents allies enter USSR in NCMs, that is solved as well
I am starting to wonder if Russia (or its allies with Russia in mind) will have more restrictions then before. What kind of political arrangement will there be between Rus, Jap, and China.
I think China is fine the way it is, maybe a few more guys here and there just to help better represent the masses of troops they had, although not well trained ones but they had just as many guys as some countries had bullets. As for other special kinds of movements or rules etc etc, isn’t the game already getting complex enough? Why add tons of more stuff to remember and deal with, with just a small faction in the game? I say wait on the global game when Russia is involved in the Pacific theater then you guys might change your tune about the game being fine. You gotta realize, we are essentially playing with only half a AA50 board here. Interesting point made at trying to change things for the betterment of China but I think its a lost cause. I think the game will be fine with the global version in play.
Gharen, I’m not necessarily an advocate for changing the rules for China, or of allowing the Chinese out of China in AA40. Hell they get to go into 20 tt. I would have liked to see a Chinese AA gun just to show the p40 ftr wasn’t just a paper tiger and the Japs took heavy air losses. I did think that China was much to weak in AA50, especially 41. I also think that China’s roll will be much different in the 40 global game. The UK/Russian powers will play a much bigger role in the Chinese arena (its kinda like an arena-they can’t leave-he he couldn’t resist :-D). Anyway I for one will hold judgment until I’ve actually had a chance to play the global game. I don’t foresee any real problems here. I also like the fact that China is a very minor mostly def ally that is going to need a lot of help to stay in the game.
edit: I would like to see some Russian restrictions when it comes to its allies in Russian tt, and vice-versa. The Russians didn’t play nice w/allies. Any Russians going into China should maybe represent communist (MIO), and became red Chinese. They would at the point of entry have the same restrictions as the Chinese, and could not return to Russian soil. This would make Russia think twice about placing units in china. I don’t think any of this will be part of the game, but makes for an interesting scenario.
