@Imperious:
Let’s ask this question. What would the allies do with a 15 bid? Hmm. Help UK in Africa (Egypt) and Russia in europe to defeat Germany. Why? To help an already effective and most commonly used KGF playout.
alot more variations in strategy than forcing the allies to build a factory in India. Soviets could have 3 tanks, or a fighter in 1941 or gasp a bomber, i could think of a million ideas like reinforcing Egypt or buying another ship to protect my UK BB. I could build a better navy for USA and possibly stop the japanese from attacking the pac fleet? I could put alot of chinese infantry on the map and make it difficult for japan to wipe them out. How 5 infantry and protecting the flying tigers sound?
I guess you missed my point about bids never getting to 15. I would NEVER give anything higher than 10 to the allies, ever! Therefor your examples are moot points.
@Imperious:
Also, i think it is a mistake to assume the AAR ideas work as well as you elude in AA50. IN fact, Their is no KIF in AAR, so i am not sure why you brought it up. KIF is something new and can be its own strategy to defeat the Germans.
The allied fleet sitting in SZ12 and pushing units through north africa is the same in Revised and AA50. It’s even MORE effective as Italy is weaker in AA50 AND it’s a capital so it’s a bigger prize.
@Imperious:
If you want more strategy then just make no rules like a fixed factory with special rules in india idea. Rather perhaps each nation gets 12 IPC to start to buy something new, or perhaps change out its starting positions with different units, but spending no more than an extra 12 IPC… this would add alot of new ideas to the game.
Sure, other new ideas are fine. And these could probably work. Why then are you knocking someone else’s ideas, specifically C_J’s linmited IC?
Because Godzilla (70+ IPC Japan) eventually will kill you if you don’t get Germany first.
@Imperious:
Their are other ideas that can stop this ( e.g. 5 Chinese infantry protecting that fighter?)
Yep, plenty of ideas, but it seems that yours are always better then C_J’s.
@Imperious:
I have no idea why you say this:
Look, I am not saying that the bid system is bad. Is is good and simple and it does add balance to the game. But I think a bid is lacking in it’s ability to add variation in game play. Why? Because the bid level will never get high enough to make a huge difference in the pacific/asian theatre. In the end, it will only serve to strengthen the best allied game plan.
@Imperious:
as we both can see the bid can be a factory in India, as much as 5 new Chinese infantry, their is no way to make the claim that only a UK factory is the ONLY MEASURE of getting balanced play, with the bid as less desirable because the bid can be anything including this factory. Also, special rules for this factory just add nothing to the game. IN fact if the claim that a UK factory was the ‘fix’ for the balance ( of which i think the game is just fine because i don’t play with NO’s) how can you possibly say this with the restricted factory builds? That would be making the claim that the game is imbalanced unless you alter the rules for the India factory only and give this thing to UK before the game starts?
Guess you missed the part about variability in allied strategic options
IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT BALANCE!
Also, how arrogant and ignorant of you to state that “special rules for this factory just add nothing to the game”. Do you really fancy yourself to be the end-all of know-all of AA50 rule modifications (a.k.a house rules)?
I am sorry to inform you, but you are not. In fact, no one is.
@Imperious:
I think the only problem with AA50 is the lack of Chinese infantry. If you just use that China Mod or round up Chinese builds, or have China move with the Soviets so they can get out of harms way, you got alot toward balance. Perhaps giving the Soviets something in 1941 like a standard pact with Japan ( cant attack for x turns or they get some ‘far east force’) you protected the Soviets from slaughter. I have played with some of these ideas and i find it good against a strong Japanese player.
Certainly Adding Chinese unis can slow Japan down. Does this enable UK to realistically fight japan? Not likely. Japan can just go around China (north or south) and do a slow push on china. This happens in the 1942 scenario.
And I admit I have not looked at the China mods that people have proposed, but if they include Chinese units can leave China territories, then those mods are just as crazy, wrong, or whatever you gents seem to keep calling the limited IC change.
And I admit I have not looked at the China mods that people have proposed, but if they include Chinese units can leave China territories, then those mods are just as crazy, wrong, or whatever you gents seem to keep calling the limited IC change.
Put 2 infantry and 1 artillery in India as a bid. UK1 then you purchase an IC in India. This is 15 IPC.
Buy a 1/2 IC and the same units, and it is 18 IPC.
Are you seriously going to argue that a Fully functional IC which costs less is not better than a 1/2 IC which cost UK more?
Go ahead. Please show me how a more costly/more limiited option is better than the bid/full IC.
And not to defend IL…. but I find it funny that you attack IL for disputing CJ as arrogance, when CJ basically called Larry Harris an idiot designer, and you said nothing.
Perhaps people should watch the attacks and focus on the arguments and not the person.
I guess you missed my point about bids never getting to 15.
Good then the idea of a 15 IPC factory in India is not needed.
The allied fleet sitting in SZ12 and pushing units through north africa is the same in Revised and AA50. It’s even MORE effective as Italy is weaker in AA50 AND it’s a capital so it’s a bigger prize.
I think you missed my point. Italy is not a player is revised. They have their own turn and the double turn of the allies is gone in AA50. Italy is a can opener and NOW in aa50, those revised ideas have little play because many more options are offered, while others are closed because of this six player. You can now attempt to fight Germany by way of attacking Italy, which is not a viable option in AAR ( for the most part)
Why then are you knocking someone else’s ideas, specifically C_J’s linmited IC?
I don’t think they will work because the idea is not balancing the game in the proper area that may need balanced. Its not as fact that AA50 is imbalanced, It may be a fact if playing 1941 with the NO’s, but the blanket claim that AA50 needs this free IC is a claim that has no merit. I don’t care who made it up. It not a needed thing to add to AA50.
If anything the problem is China, which is undermanned and static. to coin a phrase its nothing more than an ‘ACME wall’, when it should be dynamic and have plenty of forces. IN the war they fielded 560 divisions and these are not represented. The first duty to address the game is to get them help, not UK.
I find it astonishing that the conclusion of addressing AA50 would bring up some bogus UK IC as a solution and totally ignore China?
Yep, plenty of ideas, but it seems that yours are always better then C_J’s.
I think you don’t need to make this personal right? The reference should be to look at the solutions offered by others and see how they match or at least the common problems people have discovered. Then you can gain a full understanding of “what the people have discovered is needed to fix AA50” I think you will find the solution is most likely China and not a free 15 IPC factory ( though your bids don’t allow a high 15 IPC bid.
trying to address the issues with AA50. Specifically, these were:
1. Increased Historical Accuracy
2. Increased Variation of Playout
3. Increased Strategic Options
If this is the goal, then the UK factory is not as sufficient than allowing a bid ( which can be anything that can improve variation/options)
If you want realism, you would be addressing China which is not realistic. They melt is two turns. How is it possible to make historical accuracy and not address them?
AS far as i can tell you just gave the allies 15 IPC factory and imbalanced the game. If you want more realism, you fix China and perhaps introduce minor factories ( from AAP40) and give both sides a few of these…just one idea… another is alter the setup to preclude the standard turn 1 moves… of third… offer an alteration of setup up to X IPC. This would generate great changes is play than to just say “take your magic factory and the game totally alters everywhere”
Just introduce minor factories
Karellia factory becomes minor
Caccauss factory becomes minor
France gets minor factory
Eastern Canada gets minor factory
Australia gets minor factory
Manchuria gets minor factory
you could give india a minor factory OR do what I do, allow ONE Victory City per turn to act as a factory that can mobilize 1 infantry that turn.
Add 3 victory cites for each side (Helsinki, Belgrade, Saigon) (Vladivostock, Cape Town, Cairo)
Yes and make it equal for both sides.
ON the VC add Cairo and Polesti but keep the same VC winning total. Makes for shorter game. The other cities you mentioned dont really seem like places the axis needed to capture to ‘win’ whatever that means.
And I admit I have not looked at the China mods that people have proposed, but if they include Chinese units can leave China territories, then those mods are just as crazy, wrong, or whatever you gents seem to keep calling the limited IC change.
Put 2 infantry and 1 artillery in India as a bid. UK1 then you purchase an IC in India. This is 15 IPC.
Buy a 1/2 IC and the same units, and it is 18 IPC.
Are you seriously going to argue that a Fully functional IC which costs less is not better than a 1/2 IC which cost UK more?
OK. Let’s begin over from the start.
Most games will NEVER have an allied bid over 6, let alone $10!
The allies only really need 2 more units in Egypt to keep Germany from attacking on G1.
That saves 2 inf, art, tank, ftr that is normally lost on G1 (not always, but most of the time).
Without the ability to effectively diminish these UK Egypt units, Italy will be hard pressed to get their NOs (this rule change is for NO’s IL)
This opens up the allied option of killing the Med fleet round 3.
Now Europe’s soft under belly needs protection support.
The whole dynamic of the game has swung to a very strong allied advantage in europe (there are some things the axis can do, but they will be MUCH more limited in their expansion)
so I based my whole discussions on the fact that no allied bid will go much higher than 8 (if that!)
This is a premise that we must agree upon, and if you don’t, then the rest of the discussion will not make any sense.
Go ahead. Please show me how a more costly/more limiited option is better than the bid/full IC.
If you can agree that bid levels would NEVER approach 15, let alone 10, we can further discuss.
I think that has been a starting point of discussion we never reached… the current level of a bid that is needed to ‘balance’ the game.
And not to defend IL…. but I find it funny that you attack IL for disputing CJ as arrogance
I attacked how he just dismissed out of hand the whole idea of a limited IC (at a cost of $8) by stating:
@Imperious:
“special rules for this factory just add nothing to the game”
…when CJ basically called Larry Harris an idiot designer, and you said nothing.
C_J can speak to defending his own statements.
I think you need different solutions for different games:
for Balance #1 is slightly pro axis, #2 is balanced, #3 is kinda in need of something because axis run all over, #4 i have no opinion either way because i havent got in enough games.
Second, to make blanket statements that after reading the forums that some British Factory is the fix for each version:
Thirdly, the solution if it is not to balance the game, but to make it more historical or give more strategy, then i think the solution needs to include:
IN each case these ideas apply to each nation equally ( except #4)
The allies only really need 2 more units in Egypt to keep Germany from attacking on G1.
That saves 2 inf, art, tank, ftr that is normally lost on G1 (not always, but most of the time).
Without the ability to effectively diminish these UK Egypt units, Italy will be hard pressed to get their NOs (this rule change is for NO’s IL)so I based my whole discussions on the fact that no allied bid will go much higher than 8 (if that!)
This is a premise that we must agree upon, and if you don’t, then the rest of the discussion will not make any sense.
I dont see this as an issue. If you place a bid (or instead get a 1/2 IC in India) then you are not placing anything in Egypt. The units would die in either case.
Or are you now saying that UK gets a bid of 6 AND the ability to buy a 1/2 IC???
If you can agree that bid levels would NEVER approach 15, let alone 10, we can further discuss.
I think that has been a starting point of discussion we never reached… the current level of a bid that is needed to ‘balance’ the game.
I used 10 for simplicity’s sake. A 6 bid costs UK 15 IPC for a full IC in India, and costs “CJ” 14 (The 8+3+3). Except my UK has a full IC (and use of the 2 inf R1). Thats still a plus for the bid IMHO. A bid of 8 is in my favor 15 to 16 IPC wise. I do recognize that the 1/2 IC idea allows a 3 unit placement however.
Lets agree that the bid is 6-8. That ok?
The allies only really need 2 more units in Egypt to keep Germany from attacking on G1.
That saves 2 inf, art, tank, ftr that is normally lost on G1 (not always, but most of the time).
Without the ability to effectively diminish these UK Egypt units, Italy will be hard pressed to get their NOs (this rule change is for NO’s IL)so I based my whole discussions on the fact that no allied bid will go much higher than 8 (if that!)
This is a premise that we must agree upon, and if you don’t, then the rest of the discussion will not make any sense.I dont see this as an issue. If you place a bid (or instead get a 1/2 IC in India) then you are not placing anything in Egypt. The units would die in either case.
Or are you now saying that UK gets a bid of 6 AND the ability to buy a 1/2 IC???
No. I was using my gaming experience / background to show what I think is a proper bid to balance the game.
If you can agree that bid levels would NEVER approach 15, let alone 10, we can further discuss.
I think that has been a starting point of discussion we never reached… the current level of a bid that is needed to ‘balance’ the game.I used 10 for simplicity’s sake. A 6 bid costs UK 15 IPC for a full IC in India, and costs “CJ” 14 (The 8+3+3). Except my UK has a full IC (and use of the 2 inf R1). Thats still a plus for the bid IMHO. A bid of 8 is in my favor 15 to 16 IPC wise. I do recognize that the 1/2 IC idea allows a 3 unit placement however.
Lets agree that the bid is 6-8. That ok?
Yes, so a bid is free units. One time. That amount here is $6-8 IPCs.
the 1/2 IC is 8 plus 3 units (3 inf=9) = 17.
So… a bid (at this point) is giving you less units, but costs UK less as well (0)
trying to even up things, UK buys an IC turn one (15) and only gets the 2 bid units placed at India.
so now we have: BID = 2 units, full IC = 15 cost to UK
Lim IC = 3 units, 17 cost to UK
Difference is one more unit at an additional $2 IPC cost.
So it looks like if the bid level is as high as 6-8, then the Lim IC doesn’t look much better (or even worse if you needed to upgrade).
But if the allied bid level drops to 1 unit, does the extra 2 units immediately added on UK1’s end of turn make that much of a difference? I don’t know. I think we’re still going to try and play it out.
So it looks like if the bid level is as high as 6-8, then the Lim IC doesn’t look much better (or even worse if you needed to upgrade).
But if the allied bid level drops to 1 unit, does the extra 2 units immediately added on UK1’s end of turn make that much of a difference? I don’t know. I think we’re still going to try and play it out.
I agree that the main benefit of this rule is in a “low bid” situation. Instead of 1 unit, you get 3.
However, if the game is “balanced” with a simple 1 unit bid, then I believe giving the UK this option would unbalance the game in the allies favor. Its a unique advantage not replicated to the axis.
@Imperious:
I think you need different solutions for different games:
- 1941
- 1942
- 1941 with no’s and tech
- 1942 with no’s and tech
Maybe we need different solutions, but first and foremost, we need different amount of bids for each setting.
As for the balance, it’s pretty obvious for those who haven’t figured it out, AA50 has been out for more than a year.
41 w/o NOs allies are favored, my guess is that the bid does not need to be much higher than AAR.
42 w/o NOs, allies are favored, my guess is that the bid does not need to be much higher than AAR.
41 + NOs, axis are favored, bids should be 6-10 ipc to allies.
42 + NOs, axis are favored, bids should be 6-10 to allies, maybe higher? But not much more than 10 ipc.
This is valid when “pretty” experienced players in a 1vs1 setting where both players use the tactics and strats that is most efficient, no fun games or multi-player-circus.
And tech is like Yhatzee, we don’t use bids in yhatzee do we?
Tech goes with NO’s If your playing NO games w/o tech, it’s pretty much not a standard version of AA50. These ideas are working together.
So it’s either no NO’s and Tech or with NO’s and Tech and not a third category of NO’s with no tech.
But yes you can’t make blanket statements that in all four games give UK a free factory in India from anything researched from reading countless ‘after action reports’
Though it was stated that these rules are not to balance the game but some idea about making it “historical”, you can’t just give a player a free factory and not consider this a balancing disruption for other players that didn’t get anything.
For balance only a bid of IPC can solve this, while adding historical or options would have to be applied to all players equally rather than a few getting the ‘goodies’.
@Imperious:
Tech goes with NO’s If your playing NO games w/o tech, it’s pretty much not a standard version of AA50. These ideas are working together.
So it’s either no NO’s and Tech or with NO’s and Tech and not a third category of NO’s with no tech.
I dont agree with this part. I dont like tech, not because it doesnt fit with NO’s, but because its random. Never liked it in classic, never liked it since. I always prefer to play without tech.
While I have been playing 42 w/o NO, this was generally because its easier to learn the “balance” of the game by first playing the baisc game. And being an optional rule, NO’s shouldnt be used when determining the initial balance of the game. The 42 version, no tech, no objectives, and with the escort/interceptor rule is quite balanced.
But to say you play with both tech and NO, or without both, is wrong IMHO. You can add NO’s to add variety without adding the random element of tech.
For balance only a bid of IPC can solve this, while adding historical or options would have to be applied to all players equally rather than a few getting the ‘goodies’.
This I do agree with.
I never play with NO’s either. They are totally contrived. Their is no magic money that just ‘poofs’ when you capture a combination of listed territories.
The techs are a bit more realistic, but most of them make no sence and also seem contrived like “heavy artillery getting 2 infantry a +1 on attack” This is not based on reality. If anything fighters should aid tanks +1 if matched ( first round).
Paratroopers are not a technology
NO’s were created to focus the attacks in historical localities because they reward this behavior. If anything was to improve variation of play, they would never be used because they focus plans on the ‘usual suspects’
The solution for what NO’s should have been used for was to tie them to national victory conditions, so that nations can win individually. This would also solve the japanese always helping Germany thing with Japan just focusing on what it needs to do to win and to hell with Germany. Neither nation was aligned in any form that they fought together or planed together. It’s all rubbish IMO.
The only thing that could work for something like NO’s was “locations of strategic importance” like oil centers that cost the owning player income if lost to the enemy ala AAE.
Then what you posted initially is not what you really wanted after all. Your main point was historical accuracy, and the “boring” allies to berlin and Japan v. Russia.
Yet your #1 fix is –-- place a UK IC which can go into Canada. Please tell me how this placement aids in fixing the “history” issues.
Note : it doesnt.
There is a simple “historical” fix to your initial issue. It forces your group to think outside the box. After you have played with it, you will find other ways to win, after which, you will no longer need the rule.
I’d also note you insist on NO’s, which is an admitted cause of the “axis advantage” you dont like. But AR already noted that above.
I think though, that there are enough smart players on this website, much smarter than the people who actually made the game, that we should be able to come up with just 1 or 2 house rules that fix this inherent flaw in the game
I also think you owe Larry an apology for this.
IC in Canada is for strategic options with the other rules listed
The numbers 1,2 and 3 I list are not intended to indicate importance. I value all 3 of historical accuracy, strategic options, and variation in playout. If any, I would say I value strategic options the most. Strategically, in AA50s, Germany can play a strong Atlantic and if UK sees this, an IC in Canada could be useful
As far as the comment, my definite apologies to Mr. Harris, as I wasn’t quite clear. I meant from a strategic standpoint. Mr. Harris himself has admitted on at least a couple of forums over the years he is not the best player at playing his games. More strategic players can see the OOTB game’s opening setup design flaw that makes a UK India/Australia IC untenable.
Wow! :-D
OK, some responses…
1. Standard bid for units vs. the half IC
-Agreed, a standard bid does balance the game, however, assuming most bids get placed in Egypt or the Eastern Front (for Russia), the bid does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to alter the game’s playout - you will still get monster Japan racing to Moscow vs. Allies racing to Berlin
-When I mention wanting a game with more Historical Accuracy, I specifically would like to see 2 things
A. UK being involved in either the Pacific or Asian theaters (ie. not 100% vs. Germany)
B. An actual battle of the Atlantic
-These are 2 major fronts that get ignored in an OOTB game of AA50 with optimal play
-The half IC rule helps to accomplish both because it strengthens UKs Pacific/Asian aspirations, while weakening them in the Atlantic giving Germany more of a chance
Bottom Line: Standard Bid addresses Game Balance but does not address Game Playout. The Half IC addresses Game Balance and helps to create a more Historical Playout.
The Canada IC option was meant more for strategic options. If one sees Germany going Heavy Atlantic or that Japan is too much of a threat to India AND Australia on UK1, then a Canadian IC becomes an alternative. Any other potential UK IC placements would disrupt balance
The rules proposed are meant for the 1941 scenario with National Objectives in play
I bleieve this is the most popular option, especially since the NOs are the newly introduced item with the Anniversary Edition
I should be testing the 1/2 IC rule soon in live play, and will look for some online players as well. I’ll probably look at No Tech to start. I agree with axis_roll that the 1/2 IC is clearly superior to a unit bid for India and a purchased IC UK1.
The additional benefit of the 1/2 IC is that Japan has no idea where UK will place the IC (unlike a bid). If you place a unit bid in India with plans for an IC later, Japan can move towards it on J1 and position for a strike on J2, knowing the IC is likely going there. With the 1/2 IC, UK can place on India or Aus, whichever is safer after J1.
Just to go a bit further with game balance, I can’t say for sure that the 1/2 IC at 8IPC will balance the game. This needs playtesting to figure out. However, using this rule, it is possbile to create a bidding system where the actual number that’s bid on, is the cost of this 1/2 IC. I posted the following over at the AAMC web site which kind of gives the gist of how this bidding system works…
Hey guys,
I posted this in the other thread, but maybe I should hve posted it here.
I would like AAMC to reconsider the bidding process for AA50 1941 scenario games:AA50 suffers from the same typical design flaws as it’s predecessors…
UK IC not viable in Pacific/Asia
UK instead goes 100% against Germany
Unopposed Japan explodes and Becomes a MONSTER!
US can try 100% vs. Japan but is outmatched, eventually needs to go to Berlin
Game boils down to typical “Can Allies get to Berlin before Japan gets to Moscow scenario”If you guys really want to think out of the box, I’d suggest a house rule like the following…
Pre-placed UK IC
-On UK1 only, during the Purchase Units phase, UK may purchase a “Limited IC” for placement in either India, Australia, or Eastern Canada.
-This “Limited IC” costs 8 IPC. Units purchased on UK1 may be placed at the IC this turn (up to the territory limit)
-This “Limited IC” can only produce INF, RTL, and ARM initially but can be upgraded to a full IC on a future turn (for an additional 7 IPC)-If you’re wanting to decide who plays who, you can simply bid for the starting cost of the IC (anywhere from 0-15). If you felt you were a strong Allied player, you would be willing to pay more, whereas if you felt stronger with Axis, you would be willing to give/take the IC for less.
-The idea here is that instead of a very static and nonchallenging push game (Ger–>Rus, UK–>Ger, US–>Jap, Jap–>Rus) you actually get a very dynamic game with multiple fronts and strategic decisions (UK, US, and Jap must split resources more, Germany becomes the dominant Axis player rather than Japan)
-In one fell swoop, you automatically correct for game balance PLUS you make the game a LOT more fun to play The game becomes more about Germany getting to Moscow and Japan holding their own in the Pacific
-The game also becomes a lot more competitive. When you’re playing a simple push game, there is very little strategic decision making. You just buy the units and move them to your target. I’d say these games are about 80% dice rolls, 20% real strategy. With a UK IC in Asia/Pacific, you increase the number of fronts and tough resource decisions, making the game more like 60% strategy, 40% dice.
-Anyways guys, that’s my take on the whole thing. I really think we need to start thinking out of the box when it comes to this whole bidding and balance thing. Thanks
-If you’re wanting to decide who plays who, you can simply bid for the starting cost of the IC (anywhere from 0-15). If you felt you were a strong Allied player, you would be willing to pay more, whereas if you felt stronger with Axis, you would be willing to give/take the IC for less.
We’re going to play this in a FTF game this weekend. I think we’ll just flip a coin for sides although your bid the IC cost idea is novel.
Maybe the bidding should be for the perceived stronger side (axis), making the I limited IC progressively cheaper.
For example:
Player A: I will be the axis and will allow the UK to buy a limited IC at a cost of $9
Player B: No, I want the axis and will allow the limited IC to cost $8
Player A: $7
Player B: OK, you can be the axis. I can buy a limited IC for UK for $7 on UK1.
