Subs can still be ignored, unless they’re attacked.
That doesn’t make sense from the way the text was updated. Here is the original paragraph:
Step 3. Land Combat: If the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy warships except submarines and transports,
and the attacker still has land units committed to the coastal territory, move all attacking and defending units to the battle
board and conduct combat using the general combat rules (on the next page). Remember to put casualties from bombardment
(if any) in the casualty zone.
Here is the updated faq version:
Page 17, Amphibious Assaults - Step 3. Land Combat: The first sentence should read: “If there was no sea battle or the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy units except transports and submerged submarines, and the attacker still has land units committed to the coastal territory, move all attacking and defending units to the battle board and conduct combat using the general combat rules (on the next page).”
“submerged” was added and in italics. It seems to me that, submerged subs can still be ignored, but not ones that decide to fight.
To add to the subs question. What is the ruling on these Sz 5 scenerios:
UK has a loaded AC, 2 ca, 2 dd, 4 trns in SZ 5. 8 inf on UK.
Germany buys a sub and places it in Sz 5.As the UK, if you intend on using your trns, you still must load during combat move b/c of the sub, correct?
No. Subs do not make a sea zone hostile, and they can always be ignored. The UK’s options will be limited only if it chooses to attack the sub.
So if UK already had Pol, could the Germans block the reinforcement with the sub?
No.
What if the 8 inf were on Fin, and UK wanted to move them to an already friendly NWE, can the sub block the loading of the trns?
No.
Essentially its a scenerio where Germany is forcing a combat move from the UK with a sub buy.
No.
Subs can still be ignored, unless they’re attacked.
That doesn’t make sense from the way the text was updated. Here is the original paragraph:
Step 3. Land Combat: If the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy warships except submarines and transports, and the attacker still has land units committed to the coastal territory, move all attacking and defending units to the battle board and conduct combat using the general combat rules (on the next page). Remember to put casualties from bombardment (if any) in the casualty zone.
Here is the updated faq version:
Page 17, Amphibious Assaults - Step 3. Land Combat: The first sentence should read: “If there was no sea battle or the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy units except transports and submerged submarines, and the attacker still has land units committed to the coastal territory, move all attacking and defending units to the battle board and conduct combat using the general combat rules (on the next page).”
“submerged” was added and in italics. It seems to me that, submerged subs can still be ignored, but not ones that decide to fight.
“If there was no sea battle or the sea zone has been cleared of all defending enemy units except transports and submerged submarines,”
If the attacker ignores the subs, there will be no sea battle. If the attacker attacks the subs, they must be eliminated or forced to submerge.
To add to the subs question. What is the ruling on these Sz 5 scenerios:
UK has a loaded AC, 2 ca, 2 dd, 4 trns in SZ 5. 8 inf on UK.
Germany buys a sub and places it in Sz 5.As the UK, if you intend on using your trns, you still must load during combat move b/c of the sub, correct?
No. Subs do not make a sea zone hostile, and they can always be ignored. The UK’s options will be limited only if it chooses to attack the sub.
This means that if UK want to kill these subs, and that the 8inf are in Finland, then UK cannot load them ?
So UK cannot ignore the subs to load the units and attack them in the same turn ?
But then I would have another question : UK has plenty of boats in sz2 (including destroyers, and to simplify let assume that they have no more air power), germany a sub in sz8 and Italy some boats in sz12. Then, UK has to choose between attacking sz8 or sz12 ?
This means that if UK want to kill these subs, and that the 8inf are in Finland, then UK cannot load them ?
Since the sea zone isn’t hostile, the units in Finland can be loaded. However, since the UK is attacking, the transports must either remain and be involved in the attack, or move away during combat movement. As a result, the only way the units can loaded is to use them for an amphibious assault.
So UK cannot ignore the subs to load the units and attack them in the same turn ?
Not unless it’s attacking with the units.
But then I would have another question : UK has plenty of boats in sz2 (including destroyers, and to simplify let assume that they have no more air power), germany a sub in sz8 and Italy some boats in sz12. Then, UK has to choose between attacking sz8 or sz12 ?
Not at all. Subs can always be ignored during movement. The attack doesn’t happen until after all combat movement is completed. Some UK ships can stop in sea zone 8 to attack the subs, while others move through to sea zone 12.
Ok I see that the clarification doesn’t override that subs can always be ignored, and can think of a scenario where that update would help clear things up. Still think it would be better to have subs be able, by choice, to defend against amphibious assaults. Doesn’t make sense for a sub patrolling the US west coast to just watch a lone Japanese transport drop troops to California, uncontested :lol:.
This means that if UK want to kill these subs, and that the 8inf are in Finland, then UK cannot load them ?
Since the sea zone isn’t hostile, the units in Finland can be loaded. However, since the UK is attacking, the transports must either remain and be involved in the attack, or move away during combat movement. As a result, the only way the units can loaded is to use them for an amphibious assault.
OK, this is more the way I understood that.
Just to be sure : if they want to unload to a friendly territorry (abd still attack the subs), is it still possible (but in the combat move phase) ?
No, it’s not. Unloading into a friendly territory requires _non_combat movement. Since if the subs are attacked the transports must either fight or move away in combat movement, only combat movement will be possible. If the transports wish to unload into a friendly territory, they must wait until noncombat movement, and the sub must be ignored.
ok, I did not get this point.
Thanks for all these explanations :)
Yeah, thanks Krieg.
No, it’s not. Unloading into a friendly territory requires _non_combat movement. Since if the subs are attacked the transports must either fight or move away in combat movement, only combat movement will be possible. If the transports wish to unload into a friendly territory, they must wait until noncombat movement, and the sub must be ignored.
That’s the complete opposite of the ‘dropping a sub’ to keep the units from being used in combat in previous editions. Now to do so, you need to drop a DD.
The dropped sub stops those units from non-combat… ha!
Dear Krieghund,
I’m a wee bit confused regarding the new entry about Paratroopers on page 3 of the updated FAQ. It says “If a Tank is blitzing through an unoccupied hostile territory…etc” I thought that territories (on land) were either ‘controlled’ or ‘occupied’ (or indeed both) and that sea zones (on water) were either ‘hostile’ or ‘friendly’ (but never both).
So - is there any such thing as an unoccupied hostile territory? I would have thought that if an enemy territory was occupied then it was considered hostile. I did not think that an enemy controlled - but unoccupied - territory would have been considered hostile.
Therefore, I would have expected the rules to allow both the Bomber (carrying the Paratrooper) and the Tank to blitz together through the first enemy controlled territory, and on to the second enemy controlled and occupied (hostile) territory. Or - if the second one was also empty, and the tank would have to stop due to it’s movement of 2 - the Bomber & Para could continue onwards (range permitting) until they found a hostile territory.
I hope that makes sense? Sorry to be a pain but I hope you can resolve this puzzle. Thank you again in advance. :-)
Any territory with an enemy control marker on it is hostile, whether it is occupied or not.
On page 5
Shouldn’t “fighter” be replaced with “cruiser” in the first line of the answer. The defender has a sub and cruiser, the attacker has the fighter.
Q. Assume there’s a sea zone that contains an enemy sub and cruiser, and that I attack it with a destroyer and a fighter. If the defender scores two hits in the first combat round, can I take the hit from the cruiser on my destroyer, saving my fighter, since the sub can’t hit it?
A. No. Because you have a destroyer, the defender’s sub rolls in Step 4 along with his or herfightercruiser. Since both defending units roll in the same combat step and all dice are rolled in a step before applying casualties, the two hits are applied together. Therefore, you must apply both hits if possible. The only way to apply both hits is to take the cruiser hit on the fighter and the sub hit on the destroyer.
