Allied3
Eastern Front: -3.20 / +3
Atlantic/WA: +20.73 / +56
Africa/Med: +5.02 / +29
Total: +22.55 / +88
Ragnell804 (Germany) vs TGC (Allies) Game 14
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Game History
Round: 5 Purchase Units - Americans Americans buy 3 artilleries, 2 fighters and 3 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Americans 2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone 2 artilleries, 3 destroyers, 4 infantry and 3 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany 3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Germany 1 fighter moved from Karelia to Germany Combat - Americans Battle in Germany Americans attack with 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory, 4 fighters and 4 infantry Germans roll AA dice in Germany : 1/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits 1 fighter owned by the Americans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 3 destroyers in Germany, round 2 : 1/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 7 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 3/12 hits, 3.67 expected hits Germans roll dice for 4 fighters and 4 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 2/8 hits, 4.00 expected hits 2 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany 4 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 5 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 3/10 hits, 3.33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 4 fighters in Germany, round 3 : 3/4 hits, 2.67 expected hits 3 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany 3 fighters owned by the Germans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 2 infantry in Germany, round 4 : 2/7 hits, 2.33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 fighter in Germany, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.67 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany 1 fighter owned by the Germans lost in Germany Americans captures 42PUs while taking Germans capital Americans win, taking Germany from Germans with 5 artilleries and 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 30 Casualties for Americans: 1 fighter and 6 infantry Casualties for Germans: 4 fighters and 4 infantry Non Combat Move - Americans Trigger AlliedVictoryConditionsMet: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachmentAlliedVictorySwitch attached to Americans 2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from United States to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone 1 armour, 2 artilleries, 2 infantry and 3 transports moved from U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone to Celtic Sea Sea Zone 2 artilleries and 2 infantry moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to United Kingdom 3 transports moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone Place Units - Americans 3 artilleries, 2 fighters and 3 infantry placed in United States Turn Complete - Americans Americans collect 49 PUs; end with 91 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Americans regular : -1.33 Germans AA : 0.83 Germans regular : -1.33 -
Game History
Round: 5 Purchase Units - Germans Germans buy 12 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Germans 1 bomber moved from Germany to France 1 battleship and 1 destroyer moved from Sicilian Sea Sea Zone to Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone 1 armour moved from Germany to Northern Italy 4 fighters moved from Germany to Northern Italy 5 infantry moved from Finland to Karelia 18 armour, 6 artilleries and 38 infantry moved from Baltic States to Belorussia 1 infantry moved from East Poland to Belorussia 1 infantry moved from Syria to Trans-Jordan Germans take Trans-Jordan from Middle_East 1 infantry moved from Syria to Iran Germans take Iran from Middle_East Combat - Germans Germans creates battle in territory Barents Sea Sea Zone Battle in Northern Italy Germans attack with 1 armour and 4 fighters Americans defend with 1 factory and 1 infantry Germans roll dice for 1 armour and 4 fighters in Northern Italy, round 2 : 4/5 hits, 2.50 expected hits Americans roll dice for 1 infantry in Northern Italy, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Northern Italy Germans win, taking Northern Italy from Americans with 1 armour and 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3 Casualties for Americans: 1 infantry Battle in France Germans attack with 1 bomber Americans defend with 1 bomber Germans roll dice for 1 bomber in France, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.67 expected hits British roll dice for 1 bomber in France, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits 1 bomber owned by the Germans lost in France 1 bomber owned by the Americans lost in France British win with no units remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0 Casualties for Germans: 1 bomber Casualties for Americans: 1 bomber Battle in Barents Sea Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 submarine Russians defend with 1 submarine Germans roll dice for 1 submarine in Barents Sea Sea Zone, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits 1 submarine owned by the Russians lost in Barents Sea Sea Zone Germans win with 1 submarine remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8 Casualties for Russians: 1 submarine Battle in Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone Germans attack with 1 battleship and 1 destroyer Americans defend with 1 transport Germans roll dice for 1 battleship and 1 destroyer in Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone, round 2 : 2/2 hits, 1.17 expected hits Americans roll dice for 1 transport in Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits 1 transport owned by the Americans lost in Tyrrhenian Sea Sea Zone Germans win with 1 battleship and 1 destroyer remaining. Battle score for attacker is 8 Casualties for Americans: 1 transport Battle in Karelia Germans attack with 5 infantry British defend with 2 fighters; Americans defend with 1 fighter; Russians defend with 1 aaGun and 5 armour Germans roll dice for 5 infantry in Karelia, round 2 : 2/5 hits, 0.83 expected hits Russians roll dice for 5 armour and 3 fighters in Karelia, round 2 : 5/8 hits, 3.67 expected hits 5 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Karelia 2 armour owned by the Russians lost in Karelia Russians win with 3 armour and 3 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is -5 Casualties for Germans: 5 infantry Casualties for Russians: 2 armour Battle in Belorussia Germans attack with 18 armour, 6 artilleries and 39 infantry Russians defend with 1 infantry Germans roll dice for 18 armour, 6 artilleries and 39 infantry in Belorussia, round 2 : 13/63 hits, 18.50 expected hits Russians roll dice for 1 infantry in Belorussia, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Belorussia 1 infantry owned by the Russians lost in Belorussia Germans win, taking Belorussia from Russians with 18 armour, 6 artilleries and 38 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0 Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Casualties for Russians: 1 infantry Non Combat Move - Germans Turning on Edit Mode EDIT: Changing ownership of Soviet Convoy Sea Zone from Russians to Germans EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode 5 armour moved from Germany to East Poland 3 infantry moved from Bessarabia to East Poland 2 fighters moved from Bessarabia to Germany 4 fighters moved from Northern Italy to Germany 1 aaGun moved from Baltic States to Belorussia Place Units - Germans 12 infantry placed in Germany Turn Complete - Germans Germans collect 42 PUs; end with 42 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Americans regular : -0.50 Russians regular : 2.00 Germans regular : -1.00 British regular : 0.83 -
Game History
Round: 5 Purchase Units - Americans Americans buy 4 artilleries, 6 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Americans 2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone 2 artilleries, 4 infantry and 3 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 2 artilleries and 4 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany 3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Germany 3 destroyers moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from Karelia to Germany Combat - Americans Battle in Germany Americans attack with 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory, 6 fighters and 3 infantry Germans roll AA dice in Germany : 0/1 hits, 0.17 expected hits Americans roll dice for 3 destroyers in Germany, round 2 : 0/3 hits, 1.00 expected hits Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 4/13 hits, 4.17 expected hits Germans roll dice for 6 fighters and 3 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 7/9 hits, 5.00 expected hits 7 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany 1 fighter owned by the Germans and 3 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 5 artilleries and 1 fighter in Germany, round 3 : 0/6 hits, 2.17 expected hits Germans roll dice for 5 fighters in Germany, round 3 : 5/5 hits, 3.33 expected hits 5 artilleries owned by the Americans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 1 fighter in Germany, round 4 : 1/1 hits, 0.50 expected hits Germans roll dice for 5 fighters in Germany, round 4 : 5/5 hits, 3.33 expected hits 1 fighter owned by the Americans lost in Germany 1 fighter owned by the Germans lost in Germany Germans win with 4 fighters remaining. Battle score for attacker is -20 Casualties for Americans: 5 artilleries, 1 fighter and 7 infantry Casualties for Germans: 2 fighters and 3 infantry Non Combat Move - Americans Place Units - Americans 4 artilleries and 6 infantry placed in United States 2 transports placed in U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone Turn Complete - Americans Americans collect 43 PUs; end with 43 PUsCombat Hit Differential Summary :
Americans regular : -2.83 Germans AA : -0.17 Germans regular : 5.33USA5.tsvg smh… 25% and you totally hit it out of the park, hah!
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@DoManMacgee @kwaspek104 @VictoryFirst @Ragnell804 I’m very hesitant to recommend more than removing a bay of Biscay submarine and the German 12 IPC from the pregame buy.
I don’t see easy wins for Germany with the bay of biscay sub removal and dropping the 12 IPC. They seem to come down to dice or are otherwise extremely close. I know VF is messing around with removing an infantry from Romania …that seems like the next best adjustment but I am not yet convinced it’s necessary.
Anyway, just thought I’d drop a note at where we/I’m at. I’m going to start cutting videos this weekend but the balance video wont drop until probably february so should have it worked out by then.
You guys rock.
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I don’t think just the bay of biscay and 12 IPCs are enough for balance. I can understand the romania removal might be a bit too much but I feel like when the game has even dice the German odds are still above 50/50 with the balance with just a sub and 12 IPCs removed.
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@The_Good_Captain I think the current balance recommendation is overkill. I think the sub removal or Germany having no bid is sufficient. Leaning towards just removing Germany’s bid as that is more in line with the philosophy you applied to previous editions (with the exception of 1914, where you edited the map itself).
Alternatively, have you considered having the ME territories be treated as normal, income-generating territories for UK, and ax the current rules regarding ME Payments? That would give UK +8 to their starting income that would (typically) trail off over the course of the game, but they’d have an easier time building a fleet during the first two rounds without needing to resort to shenanigans like a nothing-buy or a Canada-buy B1. That type of change doesn’t seem too far removed over things you recommended in past versions (disallowing attacks on neutrals, mostly)
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@The_Good_Captain Can’t edit posts in the “Play Boardgames” board but meant to elaborate on removing Germany’s bid.
If you remove Germany’s bid it allows a greater share of USSR’s starting army to survive the first turn (since that’s generally where the Allied bid will go unless people want to try being creative and keeping some of the UK Navy alive). The lack of a bid for Germany + keeping more of USSR’s starting army alive has a cascading effect on the rest of the game, as it slows down the German advance by ~1-2 turns, which I suspect may be enough for the Western Allies to pursue a more “normal” strategy than what I’d been reduced to in the last few games against you and @VictoryFirst (Fighter spam).
If the Allies are playing normally and a rush on Moscow is consistently putting up even-ish odds, that’s probably about as good as the balance in this edition is going to get. The OOB Victory Conditions + having USA as a static 30-IPC-per-turn territory and the Allies on-average having 2.5X Germany’s income even after USSR starts to die is never going to create a gameplay loop similar to the “mainline” editions. Germany cannot play a slow game here, nor can they ever simplify the game state to a point where they can.
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Interesting thoughts. I like the idea of the ME be worth IPCs for the Brits. Also, this Europe variant which was suggested by Kwaspek has some interesting rules that might help with the balance, although that might change the game a bit too much.
One thing I fear is that when the game becomes balanced, it also becomes boring. As we all have experienced those Moscow odds are at this point mostly decided by dice, not that much by strategy. I think with a few minor rule tweaks, we can have both a balanced as well as a more strategical in-depth game. I know @The_Good_Captain isn’t a fan of house rules, but I’ve been told that that website above is from the actual game designer. It basically forces the Germans to not only capture Moscow, but also the rest of the Russian territories with an IC AND keep control of its own factories in Northern Italy and France. Also the ME becomes more interesting. With that, we most likely don’t need to remove any German units or IPCs from the starting setup which is a plus.
I think the sub removal or Germany having no bid is sufficient.
I still don’t fully agree with this, however you are right that 70%-ish percent is also kinda even. Balancing this game is like balancing a broom on your finger tips, so I guess it’s almost impossible to get completely balanced anyway.
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I will reference the links in the intro video for anyone who wants to peruse the different variants from the designers.
Yes, balancing any of these is much like balancing a broom on your finger. The recommendations I make in all versions are conservative. I would rather the game remain slightly imbalanced in Germany’s favor than run the risk of misbalancing in favor of the allies.
I feel that a balanced game by its nature is the most interesting. I feel that there are different plays the German player can make with a good vs bad opening Atlantic. Russia might be a stale player, but I feel this is ‘kind of’ true in many versions. I think its also the most critical to not f**k up because even one piece out of place can spell doom for the Allies. I think the Allies have multiple options at their disposal and @DoManMacgee has convinced me that its not just a threat to Berlin on turn 6 that can win it as the allies.
I think the minor theaters in this game are interesting. Will the allies win out in the Norway area and secure fighter strips that both threaten Moscow and Berlin at the same time? Will Germany punch through into the Middle East and have extra pieces to defend Berlin on the turn of decision? The minor theaters success or failure constrict or expand the German ability to go past Turn 6 if needs be or make it an “all or nothing” affair if the Allies are winning out elsewhere…
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@VictoryFirst Kwaspek also ran that forum post by me, but I agree with the idea that changing the victory conditions is too much of a deviation to the point where you’d be entering “house rules” territory.
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@DoManMacgee just seeing all the balance comments now. The handful of games played without the bid but WITH the sub still saw an anemic western allies response. Just one less boat has a profound affect out there but not so much in favor of the allies and the Germans still seems to win ‘most’ of the games. @Ragnell804 and @VictoryFirst have sorta moved on towards recommending the removal of an infantry in Romania as a third adjustment to try to draw it down to 50/50. I tend to agree with them.
But I’m hesitant and am still on the uboat removal AND 12 IPC removal. @DoManMacgee would you like to play a game where I am Germany and have both restrictions? We’ll keep track of the dice and all - always appreciate a good pressure test.
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@The_Good_Captain Yeah that’s fine. I have a game in-progress with VF with the restrictions:
No Special Cash Advance (SCA) for Germany One German sub from Bay of Biscay removed from starting setup One German infantry from Germany removed from starting setupI am currently on-track to lose but had some critical battles not go my way. I also tried deviating from the game-plan I had previously set up so that may also be part of it.
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@DoManMacgee where do you want the allied bid? all in ukraine?
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