Is an R1 attack on Germany's navy a good play?

[axis_roll]

Good analysis U505, nice post.

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In our 1942 games thus far, no one has ventured to deem the SZ2 naval attack as necessary by Germany.  There are other easier targets that put the german air force in much less danger, especially if Russia gets agressive or leaves several targets.

In both 1941 and 1942, I am finding an agressive russia is really a better use of Russia instead of building up inf defense, waiting for a strong Germany/Japan to eventually overwhelm you.  So along these lines, Russia forces Germanys hand to fight them, not really leaving much air to be used in a risky battle like SZ2.  My odds calc shows only 67% chance of winning 2 subs, ftr, bmr on the SZ2 fleet of tpt, sub, dd, BB.

I guess the reward might be worth the risk in SZ2 for Germany, but then I don’t think leaving a capital ship for UK necessarily will lose the game for Germany.

Oh course, we are still trying other strategies for 1942 scenario as we have only played 7 or so games.  Perhaps next game if I am the Axis, we’ll have to seriously consider that SZ2 battle.

[Zhukov44]

I agree with Axis_Roll on SZ2…  U-505’s deployment (all available planes to SZ 12 and SZ15) is nice…but even if all that works SZ2 is still a risk, as UK will have equal count and could catch some luck.  With the destroyer out of the game, I think you gotta rule out exposing all that air…  Still that deployment is worth a look if Russia doesn’t leave any juicier targets.  I haven’t done SZ2 yet because I like SZ 10…yes it’s probably a game design flaw but I can’t pass it up.  SZ9 ain’t bad either.

So returning to SZ13…it’s definitely true that the destroyer is a key fodder unit (I typically want it for SZ12) and that destroying it will help preserve the UK fleet.  But for me the main target is that transport for Africa (or, sometimes, Ukraine/Cauc)…if Allies can get that transport out then Germany will have a max of 4 land units in Africa.  It’s virtually impossible for UK Africa forces to defend against 6 land units plus air power…but with only 4 Krauts there, Allies can perhaps hope to make a stand if it can get the Italian fleet out of the game soon enough.

[gamerman01]

@Funcioneta:

Potential loses are way greater than potential advantages. Germans can buy a navy even with a total success result (boats killed, both planes saved, germans buy AC,dd, 5 inf) so that’s not solved and you will do worse on land without the planes. Germans could ignore navy and abuse of plane-less soviets. And if you draw or lose, you are totally toasted

I’d say not unless you get HBs, and even then I’d think twice (but who would roll naval tech tree for USSR?)  :|

To answer the last question - a person who would attack the German navy!  :lol:

I have to admit, I thought about it when I was new to AA50, but I would never do it now.

Even if you got heavy bombers, like Func pointed out, I wouldn’t risk it on the navy.  What if they got 2 hits and downed the heavy bomber anyway?
UK planes don’t have much better things to do in UK1 anyway.  But yes, a G1 carrier buy seems to be a great move, and I always do it.

[gamerman01]

@a44bigdog:

I am leary of this one as well. Yes the Russians could kill the existing German fleet, which does possibly protect Karelia. On the other side of the coin, Russia has the potential to loose their valuable air units and Germany can simply buy some more ships. Buying a new navy for Germany is not a bad option for the Germans. I am of the opinion that Germany is better served by a Navy in the 42 scenario than just trying to grind down Russia with Armour. While a German navy may not have been the best strategy in previous editions of Axis and Allies, that does not necessary apply to AA50-42. It is a different game from those versions after all.

Bigdog, I saw you making this point on these boards before, and I agreed with you.
I agree with you again.  I’m going to keep buying German navy in AA50 until I lose several times doing it.  It actually contributes really well to the Russian front, because I transport 4-6 ground units straight from Germany to Karelia each round many times.

[gamerman01]

@drol:

Every IPC put toward a navy, at least in my opinion, is one not put towards the eastern front.

That’s what it seems at first, but see my previous post.  German navy actually contributes greatly to the Eastern front.

Plus, I cannot see another really good place to attack with the British aircraft R1 anyway, so why not use them to kill the fleet?

Totally agree with you, man.

[gamerman01]

@Zhukov44:

Speaking of R1 air attacks, does anybody like using the bomber to try to take out the destroyer/transport in SZ 13?  Seems like a nice body blow to Axis Med ambitions if it works, plus Germany has to divert a fighter on G1 to take out the bomber in Gibraltar.  Is it worth the risk?

Yes, that’s a high risk/reward move.  I was the victim once, recently.  However, the Russian bomber is dead meat on Gibraltar, although it takes away a valuable German air piece from other attacks.
I think it’s an interesting novelty, and like bigdog says “if I’m feeling particularly agressive” (lucky)

[gamerman01]

Don’t want to get off topic, but I have an opinion on the SZ2 attack as well.
If the Russian sub is there, I absolutely do not attack it.
The transport/cruiser is a much better target.  The question is whether to take 1 or 2 subs after them.  1 if I’m feeling lucky, and usually 2.
Even if the Russian sub doesn’t go to SZ2, it’s risky, and also forces fighter and bomber to land in Norway, if they even survive.

Sure, it’s great if you can take out those three boats, but as already pointed out by other awesome A&A gamers, too big a risk if you’re playing someone as good or better than you.

Hey, if you’re playing someone not as good as you, you can do stuff like that!  Attack the SZ5 in R1!  Or attack DD, TP in SZ13!

Yes, strategies actually depend on the perceived skill of the opponent, and whether you are playing 1v1 or multiplayer.

[The Legend]

its only a risk if there isn’t a game plan for doing it. I always do it but by doing it it allows be to play the other two allied countries a certain way. Allowing me to get the ball rolling much quicker and getting to Russias aid MUCH easier. So even losing the bomber and fighter, as long as you get those ships then its well worth it, if you play the other allies appropriately.

[Whackamatt]

I agree with the Legend.  If you want to counter a preceived G1 naval build (as Germany hasn’t gone yet), then it’s a good risk, one that could pay off.

Sure, on an individual basis it isn’t very healthy for the Russian player, but collectively it could be a good move.  That’s all assuming UK & US are going after Germany and want to build up a sizeable fleet.

[axis_roll]

@gamerman01:

@Zhukov44:

Speaking of R1 air attacks, does anybody like using the bomber to try to take out the destroyer/transport in SZ 13?  Seems like a nice body blow to Axis Med ambitions if it works, plus Germany has to divert a fighter on G1 to take out the bomber in Gibraltar.  Is it worth the risk?

Yes, that’s a high risk/reward move.  I was the victim once, recently.  However, the Russian bomber is dead meat on Gibraltar, although it takes away a valuable German air piece from other attacks.
I think it’s an interesting novelty, and like bigdog says “if I’m feeling particularly agressive” (lucky)

If the allies get a bid and can place a unit in gib, then this makes the russian bomber on sz13 that more enticing.
Now Germany needs to commit more than 1 plane to take out the russian bomber if it lives.

[gamerman01]

@axis_roll:

If the allies get a bid and can place a unit in gib, then this makes the russian bomber on sz13 that more enticing.
Now Germany needs to commit more than 1 plane to take out the russian bomber if it lives.

Yeah, brilliant.  If I did that, and actually put a unit on Gibraltar for the purpose of attacking Z13 in R1, you know what would happen.  The Russian bomber would miss, the German destroyer would hit, and I would have one foolish looking infantry unit on Gibraltar.

[axis_roll]

@gamerman01:

@axis_roll:

If the allies get a bid and can place a unit in gib, then this makes the russian bomber on sz13 that more enticing.
Now Germany needs to commit more than 1 plane to take out the russian bomber if it lives.

Yeah, brilliant.  If I did that, and actually put a unit on Gibraltar for the purpose of attacking Z13 in R1, you know what would happen.  The Russian bomber would miss, the German destroyer would hit, and I would have one foolish looking infantry unit on Gibraltar.

:-D

but seriously, you can always pick him up with UK later….

[gamerman01]

@axis_roll:

but seriously, you can always pick him up with UK later….

Well, yeah.  And I was thinking, it stops the automatic taking of Gibraltar with an infantry or armor from France G1 (messes with UK NO, and makes Italy’s much easier to get I1 if UK doesn’t take Gibraltar right back)

So yeah, bid infantry to Gibraltar isn’t the craziest thing in the world… :-)

[Funcioneta]

But with current league rules you cannot bid to gib because it has no starting units …

[axis_roll]

@Funcioneta:

But with current league rules you cannot bid to gib because it has no starting units …

I agree, I did qualify my suggestion with:

@axis_roll:

If the allies get a bid and can place a unit in gib…

[Funcioneta]

Yep, I see. I think you should be allowed deploy the bid in any territory you had, empty or not. Also in any friendly coastal territory

[axis_roll]

@Funcioneta:

Yep, I see. I think you should be allowed deploy the bid in any territory you had, empty or not. Also in any friendly coastal territory

That would open up other bid options…why limit them?
I, however, don’t get to make the league rules

At home, we have no such limitations.