What would it take for you to play a German naval strategy in '41?

[Bardoly]

What would it take for you to play a German naval strategy?

By this I mean, you would purchase at least 1 or more surface warships on G1 or G2.

Please choose as many choices as you like.

[Bardoly]

I will often try a German naval strategy in '41 if I roll for Improved Shipyards for 5 IPCs (maybe for 10), or if I have the German Baltic fleet still alive on G2.  Since these cases rarely happen, I rarely play with the German naval strategy, but what are y’alls thoughts?

[Lucifer]

The only time I would try a German naval strat is if Italy and Japan are still quite strong, and Germany just captured and held Moscow. Then it’s time to build the Kriegsmarine :-)

[rockrobinoff]

the ‘hold on until japan can rescue’ approach to germany only works against poor russia play. germany simply runs out of gas on the eastern front without a dedicated eastern front strat, and if germany fails to buy for an eastern campaign it tends to be over on RD 3 - and then russia (assuming vigorous play and correct buys) starts turning into a monster.

i can’t imagine the scenario where i would adopt a dedicated german naval strat - i have certainly picked apart most of them i have faced.

[critmonster]

I would only considerthis in '41 if there were house rules or agreements concerning spending theatres for each nation

[axis_roll]

We’re throwing out theories and possibilities here.

If someone were to buy a UK IC for India on UK1 with a russian move to support that AND the German Baltic transport and Cruiser survived, I might consider some German ships.

Doesn’t happen too often (if ever)

[Bardoly]

Well, this board has died.  :roll:

I was hoping for a little more input here.  :-P

[Zhukov44]

I don’t (yet) see how buying surface naval units helps Germany as long as Russia is alive. But I might consider it with the exceptional circumstances axis_roll describes above.

[Bardoly]

Here is a link to my first PBF AA50 '41 German naval strategy game.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14138.0

It actually went very well in the beginning (the first 10-12 rounds or so), but the Allies finally pulled out the win (by concession) in the 23rd round.

I would be open to any critique/comments of the game.

[Sire Fred]

A good naval strategy for Germany in 41 could be to do it Donitz’s way. Admiral Karl Donitz was a submarine advocate even before the start of the war but Admiral Enrich Reader, Kriegsmarine’s top boss, wanted his navy to be based on warships.

Since aircrafts cannot hit subs without the presence of a destroyer, building 1 sub at turn one with Germany (to add to the one already in the Baltic) and two more subs each turn could be a good challenge for the Royal Navy.

[a44bigdog]

I will have to look at that game latter when I have some more time Bardoly. A German navy strat COULD be a viable option in 41. I know for a fact that it puts a sever crimp on the Allies in 42.

As far as a sub strat, forget it. That si just a waste of money for Germany as it is simply too easy for the Allies to block the subs in with 1 destroyer and eliminate with a destroyer air combo.

The biggest thing I have found that Germany benefits from in having a Navy is the ability to hold on to Scandinavia and to quickly transfer troops directly to Karelia. There are some other benefits as well but I would say these are the biggest two, although again this is based on my use of it in the 42 scenario.

[Lucifer]

@ Bardoly, a German naval strat in Classic, Revised, AA42 and AA50-41+42 is ineffective, plain and simple. You can win games with this strat, but it is not helping, it is hurting.

[Funcioneta]

Ha, you simply not faced a well done naval strat in anny’ 42!. It’s a world of pain for allies  :|

[Lucifer]

@Funcioneta:

Ha, you simply not faced a well done naval strat in anny’ 42!.

True……, and guess why…?

[Funcioneta]

They didn’t tried it or they didn’t do well. I never, never faced a KJF strat in Revised PBEM but is a good strat if you know how do it. People thinks KJF cannot work and they don’t try it even if Japan gets toasted in Pearl or China. Many of them wonder after why Japan conquered Whashington while Germany was still alive …

If you can beat Gamerman and his german naval strat in a solid basis in 1942 scenario, please tell me the secret. Let’s hope is not KGF fanmania again, please, he will knock USA’s rear door (he attacks Alaska sometimes even in a balanced allied strat)

Of course, house rules as LL doesn’t count. Better if you play the advanced game (with tech I mean), but even a techless game is valid  :-)

[Zhukov44]

@Subotai:

@ Bardoly, a German naval strat in Classic, Revised, AA42 and AA50-41+42 is ineffective, plain and simple.

While I think we are in basic agreement about AA50 principles, you are overgeneralizing when it comes to Revised.  Granted, I wouldn’t play a German navy or a KJF against a Top 20 TripleA ladder opponent in a 9 bid ll scenario.  But I know that approximately half of the Top 10 rated Revised players on GTO regularly buy an AC+ G1.  Not just for fun…they believe it is the optimal strategy.  I also feel certain there are viable KJF strategies in Revised because I’ve played hundreds of games of Revised and still find myself losing to a friend’s KJF via PBEM (for starters see here http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=15579.0).

AA50 with NOs is a different game entirely.  Strategies are impacted by different unit dynamics and the huge impact of national objectives.  Re. a German navy, granted that holding Scandinavia prevents a Russian NO.  However, if Germany uses a land strategy, then Russia won’t get this NO until late game at best.   So far I’ve found that if Germany plays naval in AA41, then the fleet usually dies around the time Russia wants to get offensive, so it tends to work out perfect for Allies.

That leaves the Karelia NO.  The fleet helps contest Karelia.  But if Allies want Karelia, they can try to stack it.  Keeping the fleet alive and buying the units necessary to dead zone Karelia seems tricky.

[critmonster]

excellent point about the effect of NO’s on stategy. Now if Germany had an NO that included the baltic or scandinavian TT’s…

[zooooma]

I actually rolled shipyards on G1 for 5 IPCs once.  I went German navy but ended up regretting it.  I figure if G1 shipyards doesn’t do it nothing will.

[koffiekroft]

I will usually only build extra naval units with Germany if there is some sort of core to build them around. Be that a surviving cruiser or battleship. If I still have one of these in turn two or three I might build some subs or even a destroyer. Also the casualty rate on the Eastern Front cant be too high, because then I will buy extra land units instead.

So basically, it depends on how well the Allies play and how well my navy holds up. Its a opportunistic investment at best and I never considered it a feasible strategy for Germany really.