Having problems playing Allies

[SpartanJD01]

@jbriggs:

First round combat movements should consist of attacking Norway with 2 fighters and 3 infantry from karelia.  You will limit the fighter from norway from attacking the british fleet in SZ2, and it gives you an easy 3 ipc’s.  Then attack west Russia with everything else from russia, your tank in archangel, and artillary and tank from caucas.  You should win both battles with little loss.  Your non combat phase, move 3 infantry from archangel into Karelia and land 2 fighters into karelia.  Move 2 infantry from kazakh into Caucasas.  2 infantry from yakut to Buryatia.  2 infantry from novosibursk into sinkiiang. 2 infantry from E.N.O into Novosibirsk.  Move your submarine from sea zone 4 to 2. Place your 6 artillary into caucasas.  What this does is creates a wall for germany to attack.  If Germany goes on the offensive they will be very weak for a counter attack by britian and russia.  Caucasas will have 5 infantry and 6 artillery to defend with.  Karelia will have 3 infantry and 2 fighters to defend with.  West Russia will have 3 tanks, artillery and at least 1 infantry to defend with.  If Germany attacks either one of these they will have to attack in force.  They will be hurt badly and then you’ll be able to clean up with your other units the next round.  Doing this will put you at +5 ipc’s for your next round, and will give you alot of firepower to attack Ukraine in round 2 from west russia and caucasas.

First, you can only place 4 units in Caucuses (not all 6 arts in your purchase).  I would welcom this attack plan and placement if I headed up the Reich.  I would never attack SZ2 (nor do have I ever seen someone do so) unless I could take sub, Bom, Fig vs BB, Transport.  The odds are only even in that battle and very poor otherwise.

What I would do is permanently cripple Mother Russia.  Those Fighters and tanks would be gone.  Russia would have 3 inf, 2 figs in Karelia and 4 arm, 2 inf, 1/2 inf in WR (and you should bring in the AA Gun).  The amount of infantry left in WR would determine the exact amount of force I would use there, but basically the attack plan would be to bring the 6 inf, 1 art from Belo and Ukraine into WR, transport 1 inf, 1 arm from WE and move the 2 inf from EE and 2 arm from Germany to Karelia.  There
are now 3 armor and 2 figs that can reach either WR or Karelia.  If the AA is in WR, I would not risk fighters there. These leaves sub, 2 figs, Bom to attack the Gib BB, and a fighter to hit either SZ 15 or Egypt depending on the bid.  I would probably risk the Med BB v. SZ 15 DD in this attack if necessary.

So we would be looking at:

Karelia:

3 Inf                3 Inf
3 Arm        v      2 Figs
2 Figs

Expected result - German victory with 1 or 2 armor left (Russia loss - 29 ipcs v. German loss 14/19 ipcs.)

WR

6 Inf                3  Inf/Art
1 art        v      4 Arm
3 arm

Expected Result - German Victory with 1/2 Armor left.

I may even use the Bomber in this area rather than the med/egypt, or use the Italian BB to take out the Gib BB, as that would help free up a plane.

You simply can’t expose both your Russian Fighters and Tanks to G1 counter-attack and expect to live very long.

I would likely purchase all inf/ 1 art on G1 and Split Arm/Inf on G2 and then tank dominated purchase on G3.

On G2 I would trade Norway and Karelia (assuming Brits took out the tanks there on UK1) But by G3 there would be a huge stack of inf/arm ready to crush into WR or Karelia.  Other factors could be used to determine whether I wanted to push or bleed off Russian forces as Russia would not have fighters to trade territories and few tanks either.

You would be better served if you wanted to work along this battleplan to use the archangel tank and Karelia forces to take Norway (still not a guaranteed victory) so that the Fighter can land in Moscow or Cauceses and put more forces into WR so that Germany can’t counter very easily.

[jbriggs]

well, I only wished you lived by me.  lol.  I’d be willing to show you how bad things would go for germany in the long run.  Short term yes you would have an upperhand.  Long term, however you’d leave yourself spread a little thin.  I have seen a counter attack like that a few times and I have tried it myself.  Attacking Karelia in force like that does strengthen your northern border but still leaves you 2 turns away from Russia, and leaves your interior a little thinned out.  You seem to play aggressive with Germany and that is fine, however you need to remember that Russia will have a slight advantage.  Since R1 Norway was taken and WR was taken, Russia is up + 5ipc’s.  Recapturing them only brings you back to even.  Russia will still be able to block your forces in archangel and counter attack WR from caucasas.  Yes casualties will be high for Russia but the bulk of your force will have been depleted.  You wouldn’t have the reinforcements needed to completely hurt Russia until your tanks were brought in.  Yes you would have infantry, but they are slow and very weak by themselves.  Since you left Britians fleet alone you will be counterattacked by British fleet at WE or Norway.  You will be forced to divert units to recapture WE the next round.

Think long term…… Short term yes you will hurt Russia, but your aggression can possibly come back to haunt you.  I know this… I’ve seen it happen on both sides.

However… If you are going to counter Russia you need to set up a supply line your first round.  What I always do is my first round purchase, I get an IC and place it in EE.  5 tanks for germany.  That will give you more firepower and flexibility.  You will see better results against Russia if you build an IC closer to the Russian Front.  You can get bigger units and your slower units to the front faster.  As Germany I always go after the british fleet first.  Troopships are my targets.  If I get rid of them, that buys me an extra round or to to keep sending huge amounts of tanks into Russia before I am forced to respect Britian.

[77stranger77]

I can’t see the EE IC working out for Germany(feel free to try it when we play and you get the Axis, same with that Russian open if you’re Allies). If you’re determined to get infantry to the front quicker, build two transports in the Baltic. Since you’re willing to spend 15 IPC’s to get 3 infantry to the front a turn quicker, I assume that 16 IPC’s isn’t too steep to get 4 infantry to the front a turn quicker. That not only fast tracks to Karelia, it also threatens London(be sure to stage some fighters in WE in conjunction with this), keeps the Baltic ships alive at least until G2(unless the UK plays risky, dumb, or both), and allows Germany to trade Norway for a short time.

I don’t like building boats(or IC’s for that matter) as Germany, typically I’m all inf/art/tanks, maybe a few fighters. If the conditions were good, maybe I would add a transport or two in the med if my ships are still around. The above is just IMO a better, more flexible method to get infantry to the front compared to a complex on EE and even then, you’re weak on ground purchases and without buying more, they won’t last deep into the game. G1 build 10 infantry, 2 tanks. G2 up to 10 inf move from Germany to EE. Compared to G1 build complex and 5 tanks. G2 build 3 infantry there. Perhaps over numerous rounds, the complex could get units there quicker, but a good player should probably be able to make you pay for that purchase before it has a chance to pay off. Just IMHO.

[SpartanJD01]

@jbriggs:

well, I only wished you lived by me.  lol.  I’d be willing to show you how bad things would go for germany in the long run.  Short term yes you would have an upperhand.  Long term, however you’d leave yourself spread a little thin.  I have seen a counter attack like that a few times and I have tried it myself.  Attacking Karelia in force like that does strengthen your northern border but still leaves you 2 turns away from Russia, and leaves your interior a little thinned out.  You seem to play aggressive with Germany and that is fine, however you need to remember that Russia will have a slight advantage.  Since R1 Norway was taken and WR was taken, Russia is up + 5ipc’s.  Recapturing them only brings you back to even.  Russia will still be able to block your forces in archangel and counter attack WR from caucasas.  Yes casualties will be high for Russia but the bulk of your force will have been depleted.  You wouldn’t have the reinforcements needed to completely hurt Russia until your tanks were brought in.  Yes you would have infantry, but they are slow and very weak by themselves.  Since you left Britians fleet alone you will be counterattacked by British fleet at WE or Norway.  You will be forced to divert units to recapture WE the next round.

Think long term…… Short term yes you will hurt Russia, but your aggression can possibly come back to haunt you.  I know this… I’ve seen it happen on both sides.

However… If you are going to counter Russia you need to set up a supply line your first round.  What I always do is my first round purchase, I get an IC and place it in EE.  5 tanks for germany.  That will give you more firepower and flexibility.  You will see better results against Russia if you build an IC closer to the Russian Front.  You can get bigger units and your slower units to the front faster.  As Germany I always go after the british fleet first.  Troopships are my targets.  If I get rid of them, that buys me an extra round or to to keep sending huge amounts of tanks into Russia before I am forced to respect Britian.

Thank god this is 2009 rather than 1989 and the internet exists so we dont have to play in your mom’s kitchen.  For kicks and giggles I decided to run your scenario on triplea playing your moves against my Axis response.

Here is the Short-Term:  Unfortunately, you took 3 loses in WR and lost in Norway.  I actually had 1 fig and 1 inf survive against only one fighter (which Russia withdrew).  To better test your theory, I edited your second fighter back into Karelia.  Then the dice really went bad, plus I had an extra fig and inf to attack with.  WR - taken without loss - Germany has 6 inf, 1 art and 2 armor there.  Karelia - Taken with 2 inf loss - Germany holds 2 inf,  4 armor (and without any chance of losing them on counter, use 2 figs here).  SZ 13 (sub +4 figs) - taken with loss of sub, SZ 15 taken w/o loss (used Bomber and BB), Egypt - taken without loss.  I gave myself the standard 7 bid in Libya, Germany holds with 3 inf, 2 art, 1 armor.  I purchased 13 inf/1art.  Wishing know I had bought 8 tanks.

I will let you know how it looks after Japan’s turn.

[jbriggs]

well see I’m still in the kitchen playing the game.  lol.  In my opinion it is more fun to sit around a table with friends and fo’s and have some beers with friendly compitition.  I’m in the process of building a game table with an enlarged map.  I just need to get ahold of your triple A game so I can play it with you online.  I might lose some, but I’ll win some as well.  message me outside this forum so we don’t confuse everyone else.  lol

[SpartanJD01]

@jbriggs:

well see I’m still in the kitchen playing the game.  lol.  In my opinion it is more fun to sit around a table with friends and fo’s and have some beers with friendly compitition.  I’m in the process of building a game table with an enlarged map.  I just need to get ahold of your triple A game so I can play it with you online.  I might lose some, but I’ll win some as well.  message me outside this forum so we don’t confuse everyone else.  lol

In an ideal world, thats how I would play too.  But until I conquer time and space this will have to suffice.  There is triplea software that allows you to play online located at sourceforge.net and gametableonline.com has A&A revised game online also.  If I messed up some of the sources, just google them and you should find them easily.  The thing I learned playing online is that in-preson groups fall into patterns where certain strategies might work, but if you go on-line you will find people that know better counters.

[gnasape]

+1 karma to Spartan!

Until I played by forum, I didn’t know how bad I was.  It’s really satisfying to get your butt handed to you by expert players.  Oh, I learned and learned.  I’m glad you are playing with a bid because without a bid…  It’s not funny.

Allies have a big advantage in AAR and that advantage is huge against Axis but it needs coordination by all three allies, Russia, UK, US so when people talk about country specific strategy, they are missing out on the big picture.

For a great Ally strategy, take a look at games by DM (Darth Maximus), I don’t think it get’s any better than that.  There’s an epic game going on between DM and JWW.

Download the program AA Battlemap and download the maps for each turn and take a look at the buys, combat, and NCM and you will see what I mean.

The strategies that might have worked in AA Classic doesn’t really work in AAR (other than the shuck shuck).

A factory in India is what I call a Japanese IC not producing Japanese units yet, it will fall in 3 or 4 rounds unless Allies do a great coordinated KJF, which is really hard to do while keeping Germany busy.

I still suck but suck less!

[gnasape]

jbriggs,

If it’s a game table you are building, please post pictures after you are done.

Here is one that someone else built!

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11461.0

[SpartanJD01]

@gnasape:

A factory in India is what I call a Japanese IC not producing Japanese units yet, it will fall in 3 or 4 rounds unless Allies do a great coordinated KJF, which is really hard to do while keeping Germany busy.

If things are going well elsewhere, I have no problem walling india off at FIC for awhile to build up an overwhelming force and get both battleships into position.  UK can not afford to spend 9 - 15 ipcs per turn in India and still land sufficient troops in Europe.  I can bleed off the UK resources letting them defend the undefendable.  USA in no position to help yet in Europe, while Jap moves through the northern and central routes to surround Moscow.  Jap has 4 less ipc’s a turn, but that is still a net gain in the game as UK is wasting 5-11 more per turn.

[Zhukov44]

Yes I like the ignore India tact.  Transports based off Japan plus some gear in China can deadzone French Indochina.  If you push for Moscow, the Brits can wheel their tanks to Cauc to help Russia.  But if you suddenly land en masse and Fico they will need to pull back.

Japan gets into trouble though if it loses its fleet–then India is an extra liability as Allied tanks blitz Asia.

[ezto]

Probe Ukr with Russia on R1. Do not take. This will save you the 3 arm plus the 1-3 you have purchased will prevent your opponent from going hard at you for many turns.  Its okay to lose battles if you take away his infantry wall. Noone in their right mind will attack without a wall of infantry in front of their armor, and if he is spending all his ipcs on armor, he will not have infantry by turn 3.

[jbriggs]

ah yes…… thats what I love about this game.  When I’m Germany I’ll usually attack Russia with a huge amount of tanks.  Yes they are expensive and yes I will lose a few, but using tanks will ultimately weaken the enemy and overwhelm them.  In order for me to pull this off though I usually will need an IC closer to the front lines with Russia.

My first round purchase is usually 5 tanks and and IC to be placed in Eastern Europe.  Round 2 I purchase 8 tanks.  5 in Germany and 3 in Eastern Europe.  What this does is it gives me at least 8 tanks to hit ukraine and sweep through Russias northern territories.  I will have a few smaller units to have as fodder but my main assault force is driven by tanks.  It gives me more options in the long run and a little more mobility.  By turn 4 though I’d start getting some pressure from The allies over to the west, but With me being aggressive with my tank production to the east, I should have pushed The Russian lines back to Moscow at least and drastically cut russias options down to building infantry to defend the capital.

I do understand that I’m leaving myself up to critisism from everyone else, but Thats ok.  I don’t do this everytime and I do vary my tactics a bit, but I like to remain unpredictable and attacking with my tanks like that usually will throw someone off their game plan a little.  Thats my overall objective.  I like to attack my opponents plans and not so much his armies.  If you throw off his plans and make him react to what you do, you in sense dictate the flow of battle and not him.  But regardless what you do you need to stick to your overall objectives.

Like I said, I’ll get told by alot of you that this is a crappy way to play and I’m sure that alot of you will start talking statistics with me and tell me that my odds aren’t good, and I’d be losing to much IPC’s due to the cost of the tanks.  Duh… But everything doesn’t revolve around statistics all the time and you have to be willing to gamble a little.  Yes on paper throwing tanks into the grinder doesn’t seem to work out in the long run…but good commanders don’t just base their plans on statistics and odds.  If you play like that, I guarantee that you will become predictable and a smart opponent will figure out a way to overwhelm your thinking.  I will gladly sacrifice some IPC’s to remain productive.

[SpartanJD01]

Jbriggs,

Did you get set-up for online play, yet?  I would love to try out some of your theories.

[gnasape]

jbriggs,

What does Russia do in R1 for your games?  That would determine why your move works, if Russia holes up buys nothing but inf and tries to do it’s 3 attacks, Norway, Belo, Ukr, even I would do that except minus the IC, as it is the normal response to that particular R1 opening.  As for 8 arms being available for Ukr counter, whatever you build in Germany can hit Ukr.

Even against a conservative R1 opening, it works if Allies commits to a KJF.  Everything depends…

But against a KGF strategy it might come down to dice rolls.

Against a R1 opening of 3 inf, 3 arm and only attack W. Rus heavy, all the forces around W Rus would be deazoned and I’m not a fan of leaving arms exposed around W. Rus to bait Russia into attacking back, also a smart Russian player would hold position and maintain the deazones (not sure for how long with arms rushing down Moscow but that’s where UK comes and in strategically picks off Europe.

It could work but I still need to see it play out.

This is something that can only be settled by playing it out.  If you are interested, I have a good friend that is looking to play PBF, his screenname is crispyhaole, send him a challenge.

[gnasape]

Spartan,

Keep us posted if/when the PBF get’s setup.  But if you are looking for a game, my friend, crispyhaole is available.  I move to slow for his taste and for most people’s pace.

[gnasape]

+1 karma to jbriggs!

I know it’s hard to be the lone person so I applaud you.

[jbriggs]

No, I’m having problems with getting it set up on my computer.  If someone can give me a link so I can get right to it, that would be great, and I would love to go head to head with alot of you.  Right now though I am on my grandparents computer and they have alot of crap set up to prevent me from downloading alot of things.  Sucks to be me……

I play with Russia aggressively when I play with them, so when I play against them I try to hit them harder.  Now with that said When I play with Russia my first two objectives is Norway with 2 fighters and 3 inf from Karelia.  Sometimes I win, Sometimes I withdraw.  But if I withdraw I keep my fighters and land in Karelia and bring my infantry from archangel in for support.  This leaves Norway weakened for an assault from britian on GB1.  If I take Norway, it usually draws Germany into taking it back on G1, thus pulling some units from attacking Karelia, or Western Europe.  Then GB attacks Norway on their turn anyway.  People say attacking Norway isn’t a good idea, and statistically it isn’t.  But what it does is it diverts units from the russian front for at least a few rounds.  Germany has to stop the allies from controlling Norway.  I will commit all my tanks, artillary, and infantry from Russia and attack w. Russia.  Then build up in caucasas on my troop deployment stage.  I usually purchased only artillary for the first few rounds with Russia.  This will usually draw Germany into attacking my tanks, and sets russia up for a strong counterattack with the artillary.  Its always worked out good for me.  It also allows Russia to stay in the positive IPCs and forces Germany to attack just to stay at their 40.

Yes, Ukrain is in reach from germany with tanks in one turn, but it takes two turns to reach caucasas.  Building an IC in Eastern Europe allows you to reach Norway, archangel, west Russia, caucasas in one round.  What this allows the German Armor to do is extend the front line and forces Russia to spread its units out a little.  It extends your reach and gives you more options later in the game.  Use this for example,  If you build your armor from Germany to Ukraine it will give Russia 1 round to reinforce caucasas. and if you attacked it you will be at least 2 rounds for reinforcing and forces your offensive to stall.  But say you have those tanks and move them into ukraine you’ll have extra firepower to bring into the fight the next round and you can put direct pressure on Moscow.  Russia has to respect that and has to divert units to protect the northern borders as well.  Thus weakening the Russian front.  Sometimes I will attack caucasas my first round and use my battleship and troopship to bring more units into the fight.  If done right caucasas will fall and The Russian back will be broken.  But it is a gamble and if you lose the fight, the allies get an imediate advantage.  So failure isn’t an option.  But either way, try An IC in Eastern Europe in round one, just once and you’ll see that you’ll have alot more options to play with.  Especially if Russia gets the lend lease rule… You need to have something there to prevent them to getting allied units to help.  Again, think long term objectives and you will see why it is important.

[jbriggs]

Something that I have noticed about this forum is that alot of people focus on KGF or KJF.  The way I play is why not kill both at the same time.  It is possible to do this, but it requires alot of communication with your allies.  Think about this, a coordinated plan with great britian and US can allow you to weaken Japan by round 3, and prevents Japan to focus on the asian mainland wich hurts Russia and limits them from putting pressure solely on Germany.  But Britian and the other allies can take territory away from Germany as well, and you can limit Germany drastically by turn 3 as well, preventing them from putting pressure on Russia.  It is possible and if your good enough to see the whole board at once, you’ll see that the game can be completely won in 10 rounds or less.  Just a thought……

[gnasape]

This is for AA Battlemap:

http://www.axisandallies.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=67

For big pieces for Revised

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11223.0

How to use the dice,

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=6682.0

Jbriggs,

Good point but unless your games end in 2-3 turns, that’s a lot of wasted resources.

Please see DM’s article about German Lurch

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=14466.0

What you are suggesting is a German Lurch without fodder.  It can work if the dice go your way but really really bad.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m seen it work but only because US went KJF and it was building up to an arms race with Japan and US but not US wasn’t able to break through.

Some things to point out.

If I was Germany and saw two juicy Russian ftrs in Kar, it’s dead…

Your buys with Russia “I usually purchase only artillary for the first few rounds with Russia.”  Why?  For 1 IPC more, you get an arm with more bang and mobility, what about fodder.  That’s why your tank rush works, Russia is too thin and too weak.

As for attacking Cauc, what about Egy?  What about Africa?

From what you say, it doesn’t look like you pay with a bid?

[gnasape]

Umm, unless you are playing a different game than I am, the allies have resources but not enough resources to keep both Germany and Japan in check.  Maybe I missed the boat when they handed out brains but with Germany going crazy in Africa and UK reduced to high 10’s and low 20’s for a while, and UK is not inclined to build IC’s for Japan…

US splitting buys for Europe/Pacific would work in your situation as German is buying only arms but against a German Turtle, dropping off 1-2 units in Europe is wasting resources…

If possible can you post your FTF games, level of player(s), buys, attacks, significant battles, etc.  Trying to figure out if I’m too dumb to not see something where I can do both KGF and KJF at the same time or my revised game is defective.

FYI: I play with a bid, normally 9 bid.

@jbriggs:

Something that I have noticed about this forum is that alot of people focus on KGF or KJF.  The way I play is why not kill both at the same time.  It is possible to do this, but it requires alot of communication with your allies.  Think about this, a coordinated plan with great britian and US can allow you to weaken Japan by round 3, and prevents Japan to focus on the asian mainland wich hurts Russia and limits them from putting pressure solely on Germany.  But Britian and the other allies can take territory away from Germany as well, and you can limit Germany drastically by turn 3 as well, preventing them from putting pressure on Russia.  It is possible and if your good enough to see the whole board at once, you’ll see that the game can be completely won in 10 rounds or less.  Just a thought……