How will AA42 promote a Pacific Theater?

[Lynxes]

I’ve been intrigued by a shorter and quicker A&A game with AA50 rules and quality, but one question is without answer so far. I guess everybody (or almost everybody) can agree that AAR main problem was the lack of a meaningful Pacific theater. Assuming NOs are too complex for a game of AA42’s scope, how will Larry & co. promote a Pacific theater in AA42?

1. A victory condition stipulating that Axis wins if they control all at-start European and Pacific VC plus Leningrad, Calcutta, Sydney and Honolulu.
2. A changed IPC allocation: take IPCs from Africa in UK’s case and Latin America in America’s and put them in the Pacific. For example: India & Australia at ‘4’, Burma at ‘3’, Phillippines at ‘4’, Hawaii at ‘3’ and Wake+Midway+Solomons at ‘1’ each should really change things. Africa could have fewer territories and Mexico, Panama and Brazil be reduced in value.

IPCs in case 2) here would represent morale & political factors rather than raw materials etc, but that’s OK for me. I’m sure the British and American war effort would have been less effective if Australian, Indian and Hawaiian citizens would have been hauled into Japanese POW camps while Churchill and Roosevelt did nothing… Basically 2) does the same thing as NOs with less complexity, which should be what AA42 needs.

[LuckyDay]

i think it would help if they started with every pacific territory (island or otherwise) being worth at least 1 ipc.

[Lucifer]

There are fundamental problems when making AA42 more historical correct.

I agree that all Pacific islands should be worth more, at least 1 ipc minimum.

The British Empire was declining already before WW2, and in a war both politicians and ordinary citizens will judge the total war effort as conducted by the top leaders, not only in some theaters.

WW2 was percieved totally different than the Vietnam war, the Gulf War and any other “small scale” conflict.
WW2 was mostly about world domination.

We can only do so much in this matter, then it will not be an A&A war game, but a game with politics, war and such, and this is why I think L.H. should make a 1939 (or earlier) game.

And it’s not sure that if India and Hawaii and Australia was lost to the Japs that FDR and Churchill would resign, or be dismissed from office, not if they started full war production and said to the people that “we are still strong” “we will take back any acre that was stolen”.
That is what happened when Japan captured Phillipines.
I strongly disagree that the A&A global war games can be decided by losing/winning theaters instead of world domination.
Most industrial production at the timeline of WW1-WW2 was in Europe, from Moscow in the East, to Spain/France in the west, and Italy in the south, not forgetting England. US had higher production than any other single nation, but the US was not threatened by other nations, as in Europe, no power could invade US.

Thats why they went mostly after Germany first, b/c Germany was a big threat, if Hitler won against the brits or the russians, this could possibly threaten US in the long run, say 50-100 years from the end of WW2 if allies lost. Japan would lose anyway, and maybe Japan should be as small as Italy, but then the game would be seriously broken, axis would need a $50 bid.

[Adlertag]

HOW TO PROMOTE A PACIFIC THEATER

1. Ships must cost less.

2. More VC’s in the Pacific

3. Convoy zones in the Pacific.

[zooooma]

@Lynxes:

I’ve been intrigued by a shorter and quicker A&A game…

We hope this will be shorter and quicker - mostly to give us a reason to play it sometimes instead of the most likely superior AA50.  However, we don’t yet know that it plays quicker.  that’s a hope.

@Adlertag:

HOW TO PROMOTE A PACIFIC THEATER

1. Ships must cost less.

2. More VC’s in the Pacific

3. Convoy zones in the Pacific.

Well that would do it!  But I seriously doubt they’ll use convoy boxes after omitting them from the more advanced AA50.  It’s too bad they gave up on those.  :(

The VCs could help, but only if they actually make them meaningful.  If the VC conditions for winning are so high that world domination is by then a given, then the cities are meaningless.  You may as well play for world domination.  Minor victory in revised was the only scenario wherein you could win by cities but not have a complete lock on the rest of the board (and this is the scenario nobody played).

Factories in Hawaii and Australia (and maybe Philippines) would help, as well as more money generated in the islands.

[captainjack]

@Lynxes:

I’ve been intrigued by a shorter and quicker A&A game with AA50 rules and quality, but one question is without answer so far. I guess everybody (or almost everybody) can agree that AAR main problem was the lack of a meaningful Pacific theater. Assuming NOs are too complex for a game of AA42’s scope, how will Larry & co. promote a Pacific theater in AA42?

1. A victory condition stipulating that Axis wins if they control all at-start European and Pacific VC plus Leningrad, Calcutta, Sydney and Honolulu.
2. A changed IPC allocation: take IPCs from Africa in UK’s case and Latin America in America’s and put them in the Pacific. For example: India & Australia at ‘4’, Burma at ‘3’, Phillippines at ‘4’, Hawaii at ‘3’ and Wake+Midway+Solomons at ‘1’ each should really change things. Africa could have fewer territories and Mexico, Panama and Brazil be reduced in value.
3. Nothing  (This will probably be my vote.)

IPCs in case 2) here would represent morale & political factors rather than raw materials etc, but that’s OK for me. I’m sure the British and American war effort would have been less effective if Australian, Indian and Hawaiian citizens would have been hauled into Japanese POW camps while Churchill and Roosevelt did nothing… Basically 2) does the same thing as NOs with less complexity, which should be what AA42 needs.

[Lynxes]

And it’s not sure that if India and Hawaii and Australia was lost to the Japs that FDR and Churchill would resign, or be dismissed from office, not if they started full war production and said to the people that “we are still strong” “we will take back any acre that was stolen”.
That is what happened when Japan captured Phillipines.
I strongly disagree that the A&A global war games can be decided by losing/winning theaters instead of world domination.
Most industrial production at the timeline of WW1-WW2 was in Europe, from Moscow in the East, to Spain/France in the west, and Italy in the south, not forgetting England. US had higher production than any other single nation, but the US was not threatened by other nations, as in Europe, no power could invade US.

Well, political considerations were also factored in for both UK and USA. If Hawaii would have been lost, actually retaking it and forcing the Japanese back would have made Operation Overlord look like a logistical beginners operation. UK still wanted to keep its commonwealth together, and abandoning India and Australia probably would make Canada and South Africa less than enthusiastic about helping Britain. Simulating this is what they tried to do in AA50 with the NOs.

For a truly historical game, Japan would have such a weak economy that only a tactical victory would ever have been possible for them, but A&A is not the game for that scenario!

[dondoolee]

Perhaps a starting factory in India/ Aus, China as it’s own (minor) power, a decent amount of material for the US already positioned in the pacific.  Add that to maybe Japan could pose a legit threat to WUSA by T2 or 3 if the US ignored it.  I think that may add a more full pacific experience.

[Zhukov44]

Some of these have already been suggested…

1. India and Aussie should be worth more IPCS, and should have more starting units.  A factory on one or both would definitely help promote fighting in the Pacific.

2. China should be a lot stronger, and should take several turns to destroy.

3. IPCs for Wake, Iwo Jima, Solomons etc.

[Imperious Leader]

HOW TO PROMOTE A PACIFIC THEATER

1. Ships must cost less.

2. More VC’s in the Pacific

3. Convoy zones in the Pacific.

I think some of this will be in the new game. Ships might have the same costs as in AA50, but i dont think the zones will be on the map. I do think more VC will be in pacific.

I hope they have national victory conditions.

[zooooma]

@captainjack:

1. A victory condition stipulating that Axis wins if they control all at-start European and Pacific VC plus Leningrad, Calcutta, Sydney and Honolulu.

That doesn’t promote the Pacific theatre at all.  Allies play KGF, Europe falls, Russia holds, Japan is toast and the concedes.  Even if the only victory condition for the Allies is to occupy Japan, the Allies will still play KGF!  It’s the surest way to (eventually) winning the Pacific theatre.

I’d like more incentive for Japan in the Pacific.  Make the West coast harder to defend.  An extra space in Canada would help.

@captainjack:

2. A changed IPC allocation: take IPCs from Africa in UK’s case and Latin America in America’s and put them in the Pacific. For example: India & Australia at ‘4’, Burma at ‘3’, Phillippines at ‘4’, Hawaii at ‘3’ and Wake+Midway+Solomons at ‘1’ each should really change things. Africa could have fewer territories and Mexico, Panama and Brazil be reduced in value.

This is the right line of thinking - more income in the Pacific.  Money and factories in that area will encourage both sides to fight for it.

Also make it harder to KGF.  Maybe another space between USA and Africa.  Give Germany more U-boats to start, close to US waters.

@captainjack:

3. Nothing   (This will probably be my vote.)

I’m sure an attempt will be made.

[Lynxes]

That doesn’t promote the Pacific theatre at all.  Allies play KGF, Europe falls, Russia holds, Japan is toast and the concedes.

Well, if AA42 is like AA50 in rough terms Germany should be able to hold off the Allies for something the three turns Japan needs to gobble up India, Aus and Hawaii. Then Allies would be forced to defend those places and we would have a more balanced game. A problem with VCs though is that people don’t seem to like a victory being made by counting VCs, the A&A tradition is to grab capitals and then the IPC-change idea is better suited.

I think Africa can be merged into 4 territories (Sudan-East Africa, French West Africa and Congo/Rhodesia, South Africa) below Egypt and Madagascar made into a 0 IPC island like Greenland. That’s 4 IPCs to put in Pacific theatre (1 for India, 1 for Burma, 1 for Australia, 1 for Solomons). Mexico at 1, Panama at 1, Central US at 5 and Brazil at 2 is 4 more (2 at Hawaii, 1 each Midway and Wake). 8 IPCs should be enough for a major effect on the game.

[Adlertag]

1. Factory in Australia

2. China got a capital and more units

3. USA got more ships in Pacific, and they are set up in central Pacific so its not easy to move them to Europe

[dondoolee]

@Adlertag:

1. Factory in Australia

2. China got a capital and more units

3. USA got more ships in Pacific, and they are set up in central Pacific so its not easy to move them to Europe

I am in agreement, but I think it may be neccessary to have Japan be able to, at least in theory, be able to capture the Western US quickly if the US does nothing.  The WUS should have the potential to fall quicker than Russia, if played carelessly.

[jim010]

I agree with Zoooma - the game ends with either Germany or Russia falling.  I need to have an incentive to help me win the game to go after the islands in the pacific - VCs don’t cut it.

I also believe that even more spaces b/n Japan and Moscow are needed and a beefed up China to discourage Japan and look elswhere for a win.

Cheers

[Lucifer]

In the real WW2, Japan could not win anything against the US, unless the US gave it away for free.

[Romulus]

In the real WW2 Axis lost.

I think one possibility could be to give Germany and Japan separate victory conditions and allowing them to win separately. As a consequence even if Germany is defeated if Japan fulfill its Victory condition Allies lost (and vice versa, Germany may win even if Japan loses). This should “persuade” Allies to not neglet Pacific. After all Germany and Japan were in the same boat but they did not act according a common strategy.
This will play better in more than two players, I suppose.

[jim010]

In the real WW2, Japan could not win anything against the US, unless the US gave it away for free.

This game, much like the rest from Hasbro, won’t be even remotely historical.  But I do want it to feel historical.  Japan crossing Siberia and China and sending fighters to the Germans doesn’t feel right to me.

[LuckyDay]

@jim010:

In the real WW2, Japan could not win anything against the US, unless the US gave it away for free.

This game, much like the rest from Hasbro, won’t be even remotely historical.  But I do want it to feel historical.  Japan crossing Siberia and China and sending fighters to the Germans doesn’t feel right to me.

You have to understand that at the initial outset of the game there is a historical setup (exact strength is not maybe to scale, but is simulated or maybe rather abstracted for gameplay), and once you start playing you are altering history.  Japan was fighting Russia before the official starting of WW2, and the two countries have never signed a formal peace treaty.  Japan did imperially kick the US’s butt for the first few months of the war in the Pacific, and very nearly could have won at Guadalcanal.  Perhaps had Admiral Yamamoto survived longer, they could have further prolonged.  Even still, at the end, they were within weeks of their own nuclear bomb when the US’ dropped.

There is a choice to look at the game from either: What did happen or What could happen.  What did happen will limit what is seen as historical or right to happen, but what could happen allows for many different realities that could very well have occurred if choices had been different.
  Japan could have sent fighters to help Germany, just as Germany DID send atomic bomb materials to Japan for use in it’s two nuclear bomb projects.

[jim010]

No point in arguing what ifs, I suppose … no one will convince the other.  I disagree with the idea that Japan could have sent planes to Germany or crush the Chinses or cross Siberia while you think it possible.  OK.

My point is that the best way (and only, I believe) is for the Axis to focus on Moscow.  I think that everything else is a waste of time (at least with the present victory conditions).

If I am missing something, I am eager to learn a new strategy!

Cheers