I’ve only seen these in WWI A&A variants. How would they work? Is it a viable unit in A&A, or just a waist of plastic?
Lets Talk Paratroopers!
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tanks cant be dropped. Only the Soviets considered such an idea in WW2 and it was rightfully discarded. Only airborne units can drop.
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Yes, I’m aware of the Soviet experiments with light tank gliders. The Germans also considered glider born tanks for Operation Sea Lion using two bombers fused together to tow it.
I do know, however, that the US delivered artillery via gliders. So, since I’ve made the decision to include an option for airdropped artillery, and there will be no distinct “airborne artillery” sculpt, I see no reason for a dedicated airborne light infantry piece.
The airborne tank idea I may scrap anyway, along with my idea for a submarine aircraft carrier tech.
I thought this tread was made to see what uses we could come up with for the new sculpts. We are getting a new inf unit right? Maybe that unit could have multiple roles. If your using it in amp assault its a marine +1 attack, defending coastal tt its island def +1 def, if dropped from an air unit its a paratrooper etc. Maybe only give it a bonus in the 1st round of battle. I know the training would be different for each unit but I’m just trying to make a unit/rule that would be easy to follow. I’m not sure were there airborne marines in the 1940’s?
I’ve considered this as well. Maybe.
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artillery and tanks being airdropped in airborne attacks is not world war 2
and there definetly should be an airbourne unit
I totally agree with you.
Just because a few artillery pieces were dropped a few times doesn’t mean that an artillery division was ever dropped.
@Imperious:
tanks cant be dropped. Only the Soviets considered such an idea in WW2 and it was rightfully discarded. Only airborne units can drop.
Absolutely.
We’re just trying to find the best way to implement an airborne unit.
@WILD:
I agree w/ Emp Taiki on this, I don’t think art or tanks should be dropped into battles. Maybe allow air movement in non combat only. I thought this tread was made to see what uses we could come up with for the new sculpts. We are getting a new inf unit right? Maybe that unit could have multiple roles. If your using it in amp assault its a marine +1 attack, defending coastal tt its island def +1 def, if dropped from an air unit its a paratrooper etc. Maybe only give it a bonus in the 1st round of battle. I know the training would be different for each unit but I’m just trying to make a unit/rule that would be easy to follow. I’m not sure were there airborne marines in the 1940’s?
I would like to have various types of infantry units, but each piece should be it’s own special unit and not to be different types in different situations.
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It is true that tanks were never air dropped.
However, artillery was.
Both the Soviets and the Germans considered glider tanks. Because AA is partially about the “What If”, I will include glider tanks. Tank airdrops have been done with the Sheridan Tank in more recent years. It’s not that far out an idea for WWII. It was simply very difficult to do.
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It is true that tanks were never air dropped.
However, artillery was.
Both the Soviets and the Germans considered glider tanks. Because AA is partially about the “What If”, I will include glider tanks. Tank airdrops have been done with the Sheridan Tank in more recent years. It’s not that far out an idea for WWII. It was simply very difficult to do.
Yes, but an entire tank division? I don’t think so.
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It could work.
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Taboo to post in a long dead thread? maybe… but played Dday last week and wondered if the already standard Paratrooper rules were overlooked in this discussion. I had forgotten about them myself until I played–had been awhile for DDay. Couldn’t find them here when looking at least. If they were, oh well, if not, here they are.
DDay has paratroopers standard, only AA game to do so, and contains rules for them. Now, they are set in a specific place in that game, but they could be taken out of that spot for use in other games.
Cost–?? DDay doesn’t use IPCs to purchase.
Move/Attack/Defend–all the same as standard Infantry 1/1/2
Airborne drop advantage–fires preemptively (or defender doesn’t return fire 1st round, whichever way you prefer to look at it.) @ a 1.LH talked about not putting them into games, but he already did, and for the fact that they would be guys with chutes carrying only light arms into battle, in using a 6d to play, attacking at a 1 preemptively when an normal infantry division does the same could be reasonable…
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I read through a couple pages of this, so if what I am thinking isn’t original forgive me.
How about a unique unit that costs 3IPC fights at a 1/1 (on a D6) but the unit gets the same advantage as submarines, hits don’t return fire. I would also eliminate the transports and give them a movement of two and alow them to cross water. They would also be allowed to be transported like Infantry.
I think I may give this a try in my next Game, but I would like to hear any feed back…
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I read through a couple pages of this, so if what I am thinking isn’t original forgive me.
How about a unique unit that costs 3IPC fights at a 1/1 (on a D6) but the unit gets the same advantage as submarines, hits don’t return fire. I would also eliminate the transports and give them a movement of two and alow them to cross water. They would also be allowed to be transported like Infantry.
I think I may give this a try in my next Game, but I would like to hear any feed back…
Not a bad idea.
Let us know how it works out. I know that IL is worried about the game deteriorating into a Paratroop-fest, so perhaps a limit of some sort or raise the price to 4 IPCs would be a little better. Perhaps the Long Range Aircraft tech could increase their range by +1.
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I read through a couple pages of this, so if what I am thinking isn’t original forgive me.
How about a unique unit that costs 3IPC fights at a 1/1 (on a D6) but the unit gets the same advantage as submarines, hits don’t return fire. I would also eliminate the transports and give them a movement of two and alow them to cross water. They would also be allowed to be transported like Infantry.
I think I may give this a try in my next Game, but I would like to hear any feed back…
YES! this is clearly the best option. Every time they airborne assault they have to pay 3 IPCs though.
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One of the main problems when considering airborne troops for the basic Axis and Allies system is that the design doesn’t incorporate defensive advantages (beyond the basic advantage of being the defender). In WWII, paratroopers were seen as a means to circumvent the enemy’s specific defensive advantages (i.e.: coastlines, rivers, mountains, islands). If there were such a thing as defensive advantages in the game then paratroopers could be used to negate (either partially or fully) these advantages.
This would also prevent players from abusing paratroopers and using them unrealistic ways (flying over Europe to drop a single paratrooper in an undefended Italy for example).
Unfortunately what I’m talking about here is really a re-design of the basic system.
For what it’s worth here’s my take on including airborne troops with the standard A&A system.
For a cost of 5 IPC’s an infantry unit can be upgraded with an airborne marker. The marker is placed underneath the infantry piece during the “Place New Units” phase. This does not require the use of a factory. If an infantry unit that is upgraded with an airborne marker moves (either on foot or by being loaded on a transport) then the airborne marker is lost. During the “Combat Moves” phase the upgraded unit may conduct an airborne assault. The unit may be moved up to 2 spaces, just like an air unit (subject to enemy AA fire). At the start of the battle the unit is vulnerable to enemy AA fire and attacks at 2 during the opening fire phase of the first round of combat. After the first round of combat remove the airborne marker. The unit once again functions as a normal infantry unit (attacking at 1 if the combat is on-going). Infantry units performing an airborne assault may not retreat.
So that’s it. First you need to have a standard infantry unit (airborne troopers are usually trained as standard infantry first). Then you need to train the troops, accumulate the transport aircraft and prepare the logistics required to perform a major drop (this is what the 5 IPC’s is for).
People will not buy too many of these guys because they are expensive and limited. They don’t want to move them and lose their money. Players don’t want to build them “just because”. They have to have a specific purpose in mind. They are a nice bonus when attacking an enemy coast and they can fly out and capture lightly defended area’s.
What are your thoughts?
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Holden
I think your idea is perhaps the best modification of my attempt to create a paratrooper rule that started this thread. It is simple and not overly complicated and I think would integrate well without the use of an air transport piece.
The idea of placing an airborne marker during the “Place New Unit” is a good idea. This means that unit would be potentially vulnerable for at least a full turn before it can be used.
I also like the idea that once an airborne marker has been place on a unit. It’s next move, no matter how it moves, the marker is considered spent. This will make players think hard about when and where to use this capability. Because if you don’t do it right, you could potentially throw your money away and/or tie-up some troops for a turn or more.
I would also add that once you purchase a marker, it must be deployed at during the “Place New Unit Phase”. This would prevent players from hoarding their markers and deploying them all at once.
Your range, attack and defend rule are good the way they are. However, I think paratroopers should have a little bit more of an advantage on the first round of combat to simulate the confusion they tend to create among the defenders. One is to give them a first strike capability like a sub as Emperor Taiki suggested. Two, all defending units defend at minus -1. I’d like to hear some thoughts on this one.
The only area I would disagree with is the cost. 5 IPC is too much. I think 3 IPC is more reasonable for something that is a one time use. Some may argue that this is cheaper than buying a troop transport. True, but a transport use is unlimited as long as it survives. Now lets say someone decides to buy 3 airborne markers at 3 IPC, that’s 9 IPC. The average IPC per country is 30 IPC. So if someone spends 9 IPC for an airborne attack. That’s a third of his budget for something that is a one time use. Now some may argue that it should cost more to prevent potential abuse. But lets say some one does decide to buy 4 or 5 markers. I say let them. They may gain in the short term but I think in the long term they’ll soon realize it was a big mistake. A big part of this game is learning how to spend your money wisely.
Anyway, great idea! With the exception of the IPC cost, I’m going to use this rule for my paratroopers!
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By the way Dezrtfisf, nice toys you have there, M249 Mk-46 Mod1, Beretta 92 and a M-14 or shotgun? Little difficult to tell which gun that is on your lap. Do you ever get to play with the M-240 and M-2 too :-D?
Thanks for your service!
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It’s an M4 on my lap, I have qualified on the M2 and the M240B as well. The 240B is my favorite as long as it’s mounted. I have also qualified with an M60, a long time ago ;)
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Well at least paratroopers will be in AA40. Quote from Larry from his sight yesterday 11-19-09.
"I can tell you this… There will be Paratroopers. They will be one of 12 techs (which are all pretty close to the Anniversary game’s techs.)
I call out Paratroopers because they have been radically changed from that tech in Anniversary. Infantry (up to 2) can be flown, to join an attack, if that location is within a 3 territory/sea zone range. They don’t need bombers or any other aircraft representation. They must however be on a territory with an airbase."
I like what he did hear, not using a bmr as a transport plane is a much better way to go. I would have maybe liked paratroopers not be a tech (like mech inf now), but at least they will be in the game. It also gives them some limits.
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Hi
I been playing with Paratroopers a long time.
I have been using these rules :
-Paratroopers cost a additional 1.IPC (This for the training)
-Paratroopers is transported and dropped by Bomber
-Paratroopers attack on a 2
-Paratrooper revert back to normal infantry after attackIf the game should include a new special unit piece, example Paratroopers or Paratroop markers, I think it should cost 1.IPC more than a normal Infantry Unit because of the training. It could have an attack of 3 or 2 first round of combat, than 1 as normal Infantry and defend on a 2 as normal Infantry. If people dont want to use their Bombers as transports for their Paratroopers, Paratroopers could have a COMBAT Movement/Range of 6, this would make the Paratrooper Unit unique & special. In the Non-Combat Movement Phase it should only have a movement/range of 1 as normal Infantry.
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Yea I also think you should pay 1 ipc per p-trooper.
I like that you can only p-tp from an airbase. Having an air base assumes you will have transport planes. There could be a lot of air bases around however. A lot of your inf will now be 3 move units if you get this tech. Larry doesn’t normally make you pay for tech upgrades, so I wouldn’t think there would be a cost involved. I like his concept, but wonder if it will be overpowering. -
It’s an M4 on my lap, I have qualified on the M2 and the M240B as well. The 240B is my favorite as long as it’s mounted. I have also qualified with an M60, a long time ago Wink
Dezertfish
I have all of these weapons in my personal armory. Unfortunately they are all airsoft :-( But I do have a real armored HMMWV to mount them on :-D
I did have the opportunity to shoot all the real steel versions except the M240. One of these days I’ll get that checked off on my list.
To stay on the topic
Hi
I been playing with Paratroopers a long time.
I have been using these rules :
-Paratroopers cost a additional 1.IPC (This for the training)
-Paratroopers is transported and dropped by Bomber
-Paratroopers attack on a 2
-Paratrooper revert back to normal infantry after attackIf the game should include a new special unit piece, example Paratroopers or Paratroop markers, I think it should cost 1.IPC more than a normal Infantry Unit because of the training. It could have an attack of 3 or 2 first round of combat, than 1 as normal Infantry and defend on a 2 as normal Infantry. If people dont want to use their Bombers as transports for their Paratroopers, Paratroopers could have a COMBAT Movement/Range of 6, this would make the Paratrooper Unit unique & special. In the Non-Combat Movement Phase it should only have a movement/range of 1 as normal Infantry.
Thanks Supermestizo. I’ll keep this in my book too.
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You must have some pretty chil neighbors :-)
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Hi ET
My neighbors either love me or fear & hate me. That’s pretty much the par when you own a weaponized military vehicle. They tend to draw extreme reaction. Especially when it says “A WHOLE CAN OF WHOOPASS!” on the side of the turret. :-D Fortunately the neighbors around me love the vehicle. Those who don’t tend to keep to themselves. :-D
Normally though, the weapons aren’t mounted except for special occasions when I take it to a parade. When I do, the vehicle is fully loaded as shown in the picture. However, before I do that. I always notify local law enforcement as to who I am, what I’m doing and the area I’ll be traveling in. I also offer to take it to the police station for inspection if they wish. They really appreciate it and will keep you out of any serious trouble should any issues arise. Most cops I run into though are interested in playing with the toys themselves! :-D
By the way, the avatar that I use with German sdkfz251, I know the owner. He has 2 of them in Chandler Arizona. They are actually modified Czech OT-10. For more info on them, you can go here. http://www.sdkfz251.com/ I wouldn’t mind having one of these in my inventory.
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