AAE not broken–Tank Push Broken, Balance Restored

[Aretaku]

I’ve been pwning my friend in FTF as Germany lately, so I’ll throw my two cents out.

Germany can win any way it chooses so long as the dice go your way…believe me, I’ve been witness to some BAD lucky streaks from my friend lately.

Convoys and the Middle East are important for Germany. Taking IPCs from your opponents is the easiest way to win. Tanks to Moscow can certainly work, and I’ve won that way. But it can also falter, due to poor choices or poor dice…or good opposing strategy.

The Allies have to have a cooridnated plan. Take France with Britain and reenforce with US fighters…if you can hold Leningrad, consider bombing Germany. As with all A&A games, money is the key…if the game takes too long, Germany starts to falter, as the combined incomes of the Allies take hold.

I’ve yet to see the TP have battles that approach anything close to odds…once I see that work, I’ll rethink it, but the game is not a guarantee with that strategy or any other.  :-)

[LuckyDay]

@Aretaku:

Germany can win any way it chooses so long as the dice go your way…believe me, I’ve been witness to some BAD lucky streaks from my friend lately.

well gee… if you look at it that way, then any strategy can win and having a strategy of getting lucky dice is probably the best one to have.  “This game I’ll have roll all ones, and I’ll win!!”  yay!!

I think that terribly oversimplifies things.  I think murray was talking about the coordinated plan for the Allies which forces the Axis to play a more balanced game with threats to the Med & Mid-E.  I’ve used his plan against the TP and in games since my opponent has taken different approaches to gaining victory.  He wiped out all but 2 of the convoys (the 2 3ipc uk ones) and took the mid-east but still lost with the tp.

[murraymoto]

the TP is about speed, because you have to abandon most of the Western defenses to overwhelm Russia.  So you do everything you can to stall with what you start with in the Atlantic in hopes of breaking Moscow quickly, the combined income of the Allies is too great in the long run of any game.
  The RW is about throwing a huge speedbump in front of the Axis that they can’t avoid, which fatally delays their offensive.  Is it a guarantee?  Likely that nothing is guaranteed when you roll dice for a living…

[Bigtiti]

@murraymoto:

that’s a good question, one which I tried as Germany a number of times.

In short they run don’t have the troops to overwhelm Russia like they need.

They try the TP without most of Army Group South and/or give up the territories all the way to Italy before the TP could hit Moscow, which it won’t.

For the TP to work, Germany needs the bulk of the Army Group South (Hungary/ Czech/ Austria and south) to participate in Barbarossa.  There’s no good way though that we’ve found yet for Germany to get enough of it’s troops from the Balkan Peninsula to Moscow by going around the RW to participate in the TP to make it effective.  Hungary can move it’s troops north to Poland, but most of the rest get caught by advancing Russian troops out of Ukraine/Bessarbia.  Russia can pull it’s tanks back to hit EPol without problem and still take the Peninsula with minimal troops supported by air and could feasibly even get some additional help from the British forces in Egypt as by B2-3 the Med DD/Trn is likely still around.

Another option for Russia then is to push north from Rumania and into Poland, cutting off the German supply line and either separating their units (as they’d be building tanks then and their armor would be a turn away to help) or forcing them to turn back and further delay their push.  Russia would still be picking off the Penn. countries and causing Germany to further defend or give up the Italy.

End result is Germany’s offensive being split and not effective.  The TP is like walking a tightrope that’s been set on fire behind you.  You are hoping to get across it before the fire catches you or burns through it behind you.

[edit]
It’s just like the historical result.  Germany tried a Tank Push to Moscow in reality.  BUT, because they diverted troops to Leningrad when less than 200 miles from Moscow and they diverted away from the Oil fields to Stalingrad  Their superior offensive ability was blunted on the numerous Russian targets rather than the prize of Stalin, Oil and Moscow.  Had they just pushed straight at Moscow when they were supposed to they would have leveled it before the Siberian Army and winter arrived.  Then they could have dealt with them and turned en masse at Stalingrad from Moscow and from the captured Oil Fields.

i don’t believe the last thing…
Napoleon took Moscow too, but didn’t conquer Russia
Russians would of typically continue the fight in the Urals, where al their factories were

[LuckyDay]

@Frontovik:

i don’t believe the last thing…
Napoleon took Moscow too, but didn’t conquer Russia
Russians would of typically continue the fight in the Urals, where al their factories were

when you say ‘too’ are you implying that Germany took Moscow?  because they didn’t…  as well as that St Petersburg was the capital at the time of Napoleon, not Moscow.  the political implications are much greater for Hitler to take than they were for Napoleon.
similarly, the population of the Urals were not Russians, but Ukrainian…
whether the russian troops anywhere would have fought on would have been determined by whether Stalin had been captured in Moscow, or chose to retreat and continue fighting, or if captured, if any of his successors would have chosen to fight on.

[maverick_76]

What I have found is the game is not broken at all. If you lend UK fighters to Russia (they can send two every turn!) it becomes very hard for the Germans to bust through. Also not consolidating your forces into one large heap is the best too. I found a two-headed approach with either builds in Stalingrad or Leningrad depending on where the German player is focusing, and if things get hairy to start building in Moscow exclusively. But I have rarely had that happen because of all the planes that USA and UK can send. Also if the US sends over a load of guys to Africa to start off the game that usually discourages the Germans to even think about the oil fields in the Middle East. I found that once you do that you naturally have set up the Italy invasion along with the Normandy invasion as well. As long as you hold the Germans to under 45 IPCs they will not win, think about it……24 for Russia and 24 from UK (the two planes you “lend” to Russia) every turn equals 48! That extra three IPCs every turn starts to add up once turn 6-8 comes around, and if Germany isn’t attacking by turn 2 I can 95% of the time guarantee that they will lose. And that is not even counting the 35-40 IPCs every turn from the US.

I always read on here on the TP about holding until turn 4 and then unloading, yeah if the UK doesn’t ship planes over that will happen but if they do then the Germans will only able to match from then on out because by then the US is in Africa milking 3 IPCs from Germany every turn.

[murraymoto]

@maverick_76:

What I have found is the game is not broken at all. If you lend UK fighters to Russia (they can send two every turn!) it becomes very hard for the Germans to bust through.

the only problem with the UK sending 2 fighters per turn is if they can’t afford them due to the loss of Africa and their convoys.  If all that the US/UK are doing is planes, they aren’t buying ships to clean out the convoys.  Germany doesn’t need the Middle East or Africa for a Tank Push in general, but purely fighter builds will often give Germany easy access to those areas.  Moving Fighters to the Middle East then weakens Russia’s defense.

[aequitas-et-veritas]

Here is another strategy to beat Axis player…

A real important thing is to plan out your strategy before playing it, consider possibilities and how to engage them.
Set your goal and know when you have won or you have to retreat!..

It is definitly not easy to play Russia but it is challenging.

What I have learned is to have a good strategy for your money as well.

My first to ronds of Russian purchase plus the initial 12 IPC’s are tanks…
I spend 10 IPC’s for UK tanks in Africa/Egypt to prevent,slow down or even conquer Africa at all!
Having 3 UK Tanks 1 Art. and pleny Inf is more then enough to do either one…

Starting out w. purchases for Russian Tanks the first two rounds seems questionable but in the long run according to the right strategy it will pay off.
R3 and so forth will be Inf.

The plan is to drag the axis player as far into russia as possible and leave one speedbum Infantry in front of Moscow in Belorussia.

R1  will be a collecting or gathering of all forces into Turkestan and Russia where tanks would be split up as equal as possibly.
If the axis player did not consider to attack Karelia from Finnland I would go for a strike for one battle cycle and see how the dices are going use your TRN if you want.

R2  You allready start to bring your tanks in position in Russia.
strike back if you have to to get Belorussia back.
Here is the case:
If axis player allreaddy decided to go for Belorussia at this time ,you will have a easy time to hit his TP and destroy it, but most likely he will try to wait another round to reinforce his TP and will try to go for some minor battles against Ukraine and Karelia.
If axis player is waiting for reinforcements for his TP, proceed w. reinforcing Russia Turkestan and tanks from Moscow.
You should have now a few Inf. units in Moscow, Karelia and the Main force in Russia.

The game will pretty much end up that you are attacking his TP w. your Units in Russia since you created a scenario where you are able to destroy the TP w. minimal Forces but better Odds in dice rolling against and Axis player w. a bunch of INF. units and probably a little less then 20 Tanks who are now defending on a 2 or less only.

Of course this Strategy is subject to create the right enviroment by letting the Axis player attack and is in an adjacent Territory right next to your bulk !

When Zhukov attacked the Hungarian and Italian forces by Stalingrad he knew that he would deal with an  unexperienced and exhausted opponent far from supply and reinforcements.
But to actaully have a success he also needed Gen. Timoshenkovs spadework by repeatedly retreating his forces and look for the right time and spot to hit back.
It wasn’t very well taken by either sides Headquaters but Generals often demnaded to pull back their Forces and stack up the chances to fight back in a better area,time or enviromnet wich gives the defender better odds/advantage!!

The TP is no guarantee for Axis player to win the game, there is to much put on one card.
I 've seen games where the slightliest mistake changed the outcome or like allready mentioned just horroble dice roll…I played this strategy and can rely on it that it will make it very hard for axis player to win because you open up so many spaces and might even divert his attention.
Africa allready mentioned in the beginning is a door opener for Axis player, this is why the two additional UK tanks will make it harder for Axis player.
You might divert his attention as well for him to focus harder in that area so he has to bring in more units or keep sea units from moving out into open sea.
UK player starts w. 4 Inf. units 1 Art. and 1 Tank against 1,1,1 so he has to act or react if he considers to gain the oilmoney or access to south Russia/Caucasus.
Karelia is worth an attack.
This strategy is not depending on the Patriotic pact only on those two UK Tanks in egypt.
So do what you want w. Patriotic pact.
To me it is a waste of time and energy on to much focusing on a specific area (Lenningrad).
you have to wait till R3 to have sucessfully converted 1 or 2 fighters and keep Lenningrad in russians hand…please do not take it personal !..

[murraymoto]

i love seeing all these strats thrown out that show that the TP isn’t a lock.  I’ve really enjoyed AAE and look forward to the new version, but when I don’t have 2-12 hours will be able to still enjoy this one.  Sad that the rap with AAE is broken though, at least it isn’t to everyone.

aequitas:  what is like an approximate number/breakdown of the Russian units you would hit the German TP with?  and the TP, what would it’s strength look like?

[aequitas-et-veritas]

The TP had around 24 Tanks and somewhat like 15 Inf and 5 Art.
While I had as Russian player 13 Tanks and around 30-35 Inf to attack w.
I purchased 5 Armors (I kept 2 IPC’s from the initial) on R1 and two Armor in R2, R3 was like I said Inf only to fortify Moscow.
You start the Game w. 44 Inf units so it was not neccesary to buy more from the beginning and I figured out that I need a good force to counter back…Ftr are too expensive and not so handy for Russia so Armor was the better choice!
When I hit the Axis player and destroyed his TP that was it!!
It would take him 2-3 rounds to regain initiative in the East and by that time the Allies would allready eat cheese in France or going straight for Berlin!

And of course what helped the Allies to come faster in the Game was an UK AC in Canada lol…

Well when you play this Strategy the first time it will look weird anyway and the face of the Opposition will be priceless, I mean I withdrew all my forces and he was thinking what is he up to ??!..It will play out b/c you take vital elements out in the game since the beginning of it…Africa will not be conquered easy and delays or stops Germany takeing your allies Money…No wasteful sacrificing your units were you will loose your Units for nothing, loose 'em where it counts…like I said it will look weird because you give up Territories w. IPC value but you also lure him in and be able to strike him hard and effectivly!!!

[murraymoto]

so the battle was like in turn 5 then?  you seem to have recreated the battle for Moscow pretty well there!

ran some numbers, and it seems that had the Axis done 2 rounds of INF builds, giving them about 24 INF the numbers, running with Low Luck just slightly favors the USSR still, albeit on LL.  But, in a cursory examination, the key seems to be the Axis fighters.  If you throw just 2 defending fighters onto the German side, they win overwhelmingly and come out with over a dozen tanks still.  All about playing to one’s strengths.  Nice Job!

[aequitas-et-veritas]

See here is the catch…because Axis player attacked for example on G4 and you going to strike in R4, there will be no Ftrs at all!!!..this is what I was trying to point out, by creating the the right time and enviroment…

[maverick_76]

@murraymoto:

@maverick_76:

What I have found is the game is not broken at all. If you lend UK fighters to Russia (they can send two every turn!) it becomes very hard for the Germans to bust through.

the only problem with the UK sending 2 fighters per turn is if they can’t afford them due to the loss of Africa and their convoys.  If all that the US/UK are doing is planes, they aren’t buying ships to clean out the convoys.  Germany doesn’t need the Middle East or Africa for a Tank Push in general, but purely fighter builds will often give Germany easy access to those areas.  Moving Fighters to the Middle East then weakens Russia’s defense.

But that is what the US is for! In my games I usually consolidate my navy around UK or in the middle of the Atlantic and just overwhelm the Axis with battleships or cruisers. And usually the US has plenty of money still to buy transports to move men over to Africa and make that a lost cause for Germany. Also if the German player farts around too much with Africa and the Atlantic I’m going to go offensive with Russia. Granted for about four turns that is not possible but after that I have 8 planes, bombers (from US and UK at the start) and tanks and plenty of men.

[murraymoto]

oh yeah, aequitas, exactly, that’s why it’s all about who has the defending fighters.  the only thing I see that really helps then is trading the deadzone of belo in your favor or taking the TP through Lenin and russia and hitting through the north on G7.  that will allow the cutting off of pretty much all of the USSR from Moscow and giving Ger the advantage in units, either forcing Rus to attack or just overwhelming a turn later.  That technically becomes not a TP at that point, but is a more balanced approach and a better approach all around to win as Ger anyhow.

[murraymoto]

@maverick_76:

@murraymoto:

@maverick_76:

What I have found is the game is not broken at all. If you lend UK fighters to Russia (they can send two every turn!) it becomes very hard for the Germans to bust through.

the only problem with the UK sending 2 fighters per turn is if they can’t afford them due to the loss of Africa and their convoys.  If all that the US/UK are doing is planes, they aren’t buying ships to clean out the convoys.  Germany doesn’t need the Middle East or Africa for a Tank Push in general, but purely fighter builds will often give Germany easy access to those areas.  Moving Fighters to the Middle East then weakens Russia’s defense.

But that is what the US is for! In my games I usually consolidate my navy around UK or in the middle of the Atlantic and just overwhelm the Axis with battleships or cruisers. And usually the US has plenty of money still to buy transports to move men over to Africa and make that a lost cause for Germany. Also if the German player farts around too much with Africa and the Atlantic I’m going to go offensive with Russia. Granted for about four turns that is not possible but after that I have 8 planes, bombers (from US and UK at the start) and tanks and plenty of men.

I’m not sure that the UK can build 2 fighters for 4 rounds with a decent G1/2 TP plan they should be down well under 20 per turn income and the US will have to build ships to clean out the mess.  if the allies can’t begin putting pressure on Ger in W Europe by turn 4, then Ger can turtle and still have sent enough to Rus to take it, unless Rus can stop them or do something to force them to do something different.

[maverick_76]

Those are just rough estimates, a good game I have 8, worst case there is one per turn, but one thing I love to do is send my bombers over to Russia for counterattack potential. What I try to do is take away any possibility and force Germany to focus on Russia, with the combined income of UK and Russia against Germany it is a fair fight. Then with US sending transports full of troops to either Africa or mainland Europe the Germans usually don’t have many options. I mean if some battles don’t go your way, yeah the Germans can still be successful with the tank push but with this I find I turn a 90% assured German victory in that game into 70% allied favored victory chance. There might be some better strategies but this seems to be pretty accurate historically and works pretty well for the most part.

[murraymoto]

good stuff man, good stuff!