Lets Talk Paratroopers!

[Emperor_Taiki]

The best way to represent Air tranports in with a chip you put under a paratooper unit to show it is ready to be paradroped up to 2 spaces away. After the paradrop you can save the air transport chip and put it next to your tech tokens and equip it to an infantry unit or paratooper unit. If it is equiped to an infatry unit it can only be transported 3 spaces to a friendly territory and with research you can get heavy tranports which can transport an artillery or tank.
transport chips are also subject to AA fire.

I dont like having a tranport peice because they are really big and take up space but they dont even kill anything. If I were to add a new air unit it would something that kills stuf like a Heavey Bomber/Jet fighter/ light bomber/torpedo bomber

[Imperious Leader]

yes we don’t need a piece for transport… just a token thats stocked in your home territory ( capital). These planes should not even be able to be killed and if they are left in some faraway territory and its taken you just stick it back in your home. Just limit the total number of transports so we don’t get the “flying shock armies scenario” ala buck Rodgers.

[Emperor_Taiki]

The reason I said air transports should be subject to AA fire is that I remember reading that the Germans lost alot at Crete and that ended up hurt them in Russia.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes and once they were gone Germany could not replace them because the specialized training required, a small fraction of what was left was used in Dec 44, but these were scraps. This means limitations must be in the rules to limit quantities.

[Emperor_Taiki]

So, how do you suggest transport chips are destoyed?

And why not just price tranports right so flying armies are impractical? Did tranport planes really require more speacilized training than aircraft carriers?

[Imperious Leader]

they should be destroyed only if you lose your capital. Transport planes are not military planes and the enemy does not have fighters patrolling vast tracts of enemy territory looking for planes to shoot down. Transports are infrastructure.

flying armies should be limited to transport tokens and the transports should cost like at least the price of a ocean transport

I think perhaps 12 IPC is fair.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

they should be destroyed only if you lose your capital. Transport planes are not military planes and the enemy does not have fighters patrolling vast tracts of enemy territory looking for planes to shoot down. Transports are infrastructure.

flying armies should be limited to transport tokens and the transports should cost like at least the price of a ocean transport

I think perhaps 12 IPC is fair.

yes, 12 dose seem fair if they allow are allowed to transport a paratooper 2 spaces for an attack, and can transport infantry 3 spaces in the non combat.

but like i said earlier, transport planes should be subject to AA fire becasue they were on Crete to a point that it hurt the German  later on in the war.

[Imperious Leader]

ok subject to AA fire, but not destroyable unless you take the capital. So these are kept and stocked in home territory and just placed as players see fit to drop off whatnot, then in NCM they go back home.

[Emperor_Taiki]

so all are destoyed if you take the capital, but they can also be shot down by AA guns?

[Imperious Leader]

yes right. AA gun hits normally and if Germany buys like 5 of them and Berlin falls they all go away like transports.

Trucks would be basically extra movement points allowing for increased movement. These points could be bombed like SBR and reduced.

air transport costs say 12 and land transport ( trucks) costs 6?

the trucks unit ‘buys’ 6 movement points each, so 6 units can move 2 spaces, or 3 units can move 2 spaces, or one can move 6. Each SBR point can be elected to go against this value and once the SBR hits reach 6, then you remove one truck piece. That seems clear and simple.

[Emperor_Taiki]

Maybe trucks coluld be an off board abtraction of the overall motorization of your army. Right next to your tech chips you would put the trucks you have purchased. Each truck costs 12 IPCs and allows you to make addtional attacks after your first combat phase. Each truck allows you to attack again with 3 infantry/artllery or 5 tanks/fighters/bombers even if these units have already battled. For the second attack tanks have a movement of 1 and aircraft of 3.You do not lose the trucks each time you use them and you can buy more of them each turn. You do lose one  truck for battles in the second attack phase for every 5 units the enemy kills, but only if you lose the battle.

I think 12 IPC’s is pretty costly, but that is becasue it is a special investment and is not neccisarily purchased every game by every country.

I think this should be the rules for trucks

but yours sounds good too, and yours is easy to understand.

[Imperious Leader]

well air transports allow combat or NCM transport over water and zones 6 spaces away for 12 IPC
Land transport allows NCM transport over only land technically up to 6 movement points for 6 IPC

The value of traveling over the sea and ability to drop in combat is a value of 6 IPC additional over the truck. I see both as easy to integrate. The air transport can get shot down by AA guns, and the enemy can allocate his SBR points to bombing of additional truck movement points. Everything looks very clear and functional and crisp.

[Emperor_Taiki]

@Imperious:

Everything looks very clear and functional and crisp.

I agree

[WILD BILL]

Ok a couple of things here. 1st are you doing away with the paratrooper tech? Or are these new invisible air buses only allowed to move troops in non combat until you develop paratroopers. 2nd for 12 ipc why not just use the oob rules and buy a bomber to paratroop. Then make a house rule that bombers can be used as air transport in non combat. Then you could at least use the bomber as a bomber later. Not sure I would pay for a bomber and not get the full use of it. I think I would rather pay a smaller one time fee per unit with limited range. If you were paying 2-3 ipc per unit depending on distance traveled cost alone should prevent abuse. If you wanted to transport 3 inf from Italy to Libya (2 spaces) cost $2 each or $6 From Italy to Egypt (3 spaces) $3 each or $9. You could charge an extra $1 for the 1st sz if you want. I would still purchase chips in beginning of your turn and mob them at the end, at least as the enemy you would see it coming. It would be like a supply token you don’t get to keep it forever, your paying for fuel. I also think you should have to develop PT or use one of the new inf molds at a higher cost (training) if not playing with tech. Just my 2 cents.

[Imperious Leader]

Actually we are still in configuration mode and sleep gives me a fresh idea:

Two new concepts:

Idea #1

1. Strategic Redeployment costs 1 IPC per movement point and can be never greater in total than your capital home territory ( so for Germany its 10 maximum). You just buy these points and during NCM you can move any unit or combination up to your total point allowance. This can be bombed by enemy bombers during SBR if he chooses. If you want to move a unit that moved in Combat you pay DOUBLE ( 2 points allocated to move any piece one space)

Now this only applies to Land and Air units, but for naval your only allowed to move a naval unit from one Sea Zone to a Sea Zone adjacent to a Land Territory you control since the start of your turn. This last idea would be in place if ports are not being played otherwise its from one port to another.

Examples: the UK ships south of Australia are no longer useless ships if UK allocates them to move to India using SR points.

Germany send in tanks in Caucasus in combat and all infantry get lost and none can reinforce, so Germany spends 8 SR to move 2 tanks back 2 spaces.

Idea #2
2)Trucks: cost 3 IPC each and defend at 1 and can be placed in any area and moved to any area as long as its connected to your home (capital) territory.

Since trucks no longer really seem to fit the idea in item 1 you can alternatively buy trucks for 3 IPC each and you place these in areas you control and any LAND units moving into this area can boost movement by one space. Example: infantry in Germany move into Poland, except Poland has a truck…so the infantry enters Poland and can move one more space to any territory adjacent to Poland. Each truck can only be used for one land unit, so if you got a ‘chain’ of three trucks ( one each) over three spaces, you can shuck a man 3 spaces.

now players will establish chains of these logistical (red ball express) and the enemy will try to kill these chains by attacking point in the middle and since they defend at 1, they will have to be protected by AA guns or other units.

This models the real war in the most easy way possible and is much superior than my last idea.

[WILD BILL]

Idea #1, Very similar to your post about rail systems, I like the movement pts capped @ capital ipc value. This would help from as you said “Going Buck Rodgers”. Extending it to air units is something I would have to give more thought. This with LRA could be trouble. I kinda think the sea is a little tight in AA50, I was hoping for more sz in the N Atlantic & Med when it came out. The extra naval movement might be better suited for other variants with more sz. I think personally I would restrict it to just ground units at least for a few games to get a feel for it. After that I would toy with these other suggestions.

Idea #2, I was thinking trucks would be more like a transport for land. Cost in the $5-$6 range & move two 1 movement units an extra space. Yea its kinda boring. Your idea that it would give the tt a movement bonus is pretty cool. I’m not sure about bridging to move through multiple countries. Larry outlawed using transports that way. He also took away transports defending @ 1. I would hate loosing a plane to a truck.

I didn’t say I didn’t like the air bus concept. I just thought it was over priced. Just like a transport is the lowest priced surface ship @ $7, the air bus should be around $8-$9 making it the cheapest air unit. There is a call for an air transport like when Germany can’t build fleet. I don’t think any of the transport units should get to roll dice.

By the way GO WINGS!      Yea I’m from the metro Detroit burbs

[Imperious Leader]

The trick on the airbus thing is transports are 7 IPC and move them 2 spaces, so to move 6 spaces you gotta be like 12 IPC at least, plus you got them dropping Airborne units which is another advantage. If the price is less than 12, people will just make American Airlines AA transport and game is broken.

The idea on #2 is cool since now the modeling can be broken by ‘interdiction’ of bombing some point in the chain of trucks

I modify the idea so that now they have no defence, so if you leave a fighter alone in the spot and they have no combat units defending they are all destroyed like transports. I prefer this so now you have to protect lines of logistics.

[WILD BILL]

Yea I guess with a range of 6 spaces the airbus merits more $. How about a range of 4 @ $9, would still be pretty good for non combat. Could also still paratroop short runs like from France to UK. If you wanted longer runs use a bomber to paratroop oob rules, or are you thinking bombers no longer paratroop?
Idea #2 I’m warming up to the trucks being linked, making it more like a rail track. I would think Builds would be @ IC then roll them out next turn. Maybe allow IPC value to dictate how many units could be trucked/railed trough a tt (might be to much). Should a truck be allowed to move units in combat & noncombat in the same turn. Can you use your allies trucks to pass through a tt. Maybe allow the enemy to steel them if they take over a tt w/truck, but like an AA gun they can’t move it until their next turn. hmmm maybe I need to buy little rail symbols instead lol.

[Bardoly]

I think an air transport unit is the answer to the paratrooper problem.  But how to implement it so as to avoid the 3 big problems outlined below?

1. Paratroopers should not be a tech.

2. An air transport unit makes the sea transport obsolete.

3. Players can stack paratroopers and capture an opponent’s capital with them which is unrealistic and ahistorical.

Answers

#1 All countries (except China of course) may build air transport units and paratrooper units, and may build as many as they wish.

#2 The air transport unit is a 0 atttack, 0 defense, 4 movement points unit which costs 8 (9 might be okay as well).  Also, this unit does not count as “holding” the territory, so an opponent’s armor unit may blitz through a territory which contains only air transport units, and the air transport units are still destroyed.  (Perhaps these units could even be captured, but I’m still thinking about this.)  It may be upgraded by the Long Range Aircraft tech to have a movement of 6.  In the Non-Combat Move Phase, It may transport 1 infantry per turn which may be picked up in any territory as long as it doesn’t use more movement points than it has.

Another help would be to lower the cost of sea transports to 5-6.  With them losing their “cannon fodder” status and not being able to fire back at all, I feel that they could be a speck cheaper.

#3 The air transport unit may transport ONLY paratrooper units during the Combat Phase.  For an air transport unit to move during the Combat Move Phase, it must be in the same territory as the paratrooper unit which it wishes to transport.  No other units are allowed.  Paratrooper units are 1 attack, 1 defense, 1 movement point (or possibly 0 – see below), and cost 4 IPCs to build.  Of course, you would need a special infantry piece to be able to distinguish between paratroopers and regular infantry.

A possible limitation to people overproducing paratroopers would be to say that paratrooper units may ONLY be moved by air units.

Another possible limitation would be that enemy aa fires at the air transports at “2” instead of at “1”, and if the opponent has Radar, then his aa fires at a “3” against air transport units.  Or, what I like better, is that the defender rolls aa shots against the air transport units as normal, and then after any air transports which were hit are removed from the battle board along with their corresponding paratrooper unit, then the defender gets another aa shot at all of the remaining paratrooper units before the rest of the attack is commenced.

I think that these rules would keep people from just loading up on paratroopers to take over the world.

[Emperor_Taiki]

Bardoly, I like how you do not put a limit on the paratoopers you can build, but with your rules what is the point of them.