Axis can't win? IMO Allies can't win.

[U-505]

Subotai,

I accepted your challenge because I mistakenly thought that we were going to play by email. That is my fault because I came to this discussion late and I didn’t read enough of your posts to know that you only play live games.

But, then again, you did accept my condition that we post our maps in the boardgames area so that everyone involved in this discussion could watch the game and comment while we played. We can’t post our turn by turn maps if we play a realtime game. The reason I made that request was because I saw no point in involving a whole bunch of people in this discussion and then going offsite to play a game that nobody can see us play.

As per my PM, I will do my best to make enough time this weekend to play one or more full games.

However, I think that if you want more people to accept your challenge, then you should consider playing here by forum or email. In the interest of fairness, you came here to make your challenge so you should play here, too.

[bugoo]

The saved game at the end can be posted and anyone can look at a turn by turn history with TripleA.

[Lucifer]

I played 2 dice games today, and already it seems to be a little more difficult than LL.

The first one I won in rnd3. Everything went smooth, just like LL. Egy went fine.

The second game is not finished yet, Egy was disaster :-(

I think I must play 10-15 games before I can judge dice games vs LL. Even if it feels more difficult b/c of the dice swings, I think with average dice axis will have an advantage, although perhaps slightly less than in LL, but this can be just delusions of my mind, having played almost no ADS games for a long time, it feels different, I can feel the risk, and I don’t like it…

@ U-505, yes, I should inform that I only play real time and only TripleA. I use this forums to discuss strats and other issues. There are also lot of players who read and post in the forums who only play in local playgroup f2f.

I understand that most people don’t have time for several hours to play a game, it’s more convenient to make some moves and post in the forum, or by savegame.
I can probably find players in the unstable lobby who will play as allies w/o bids in a ADS game and no tech. So if I don’t play against players on this forum I will get a feeling for axis bias and game balance as when playing LL.

[tcnance]

@Pin:

1 more thing, i think most players whining over dices and using LL is due to the nature of not understanding how odds are calculated. Basically its not in the game mechanics for you to win every round 1 battle even if you go conservative at it, its designed around ADS and mastering the consequenses of the dices are a part of the game, aswell as utilizing it.

well said, dead on correct

[U-505]

@bugoo:

The saved game at the end can be posted and anyone can look at a turn by turn history with TripleA.

Is the game saved after each turn during a realtime game? And wouldn’t it be time consuming to be posting the map and such while the game is going on.

@Subotai:

I played 2 dice games today, and already it seems to be a little more difficult than LL.

The first one I won in rnd3. Everything went smooth, just like LL. Egy went fine.

The second game is not finished yet, Egy was disaster :-(

I think I must play 10-15 games before I can judge dice games vs LL. Even if it feels more difficult b/c of the dice swings, I think with average dice axis will have an advantage, although perhaps slightly less than in LL, but this can be just delusions of my mind, having played almost no ADS games for a long time, it feels different, I can feel the risk, and I don’t like it…

@ U-505, yes, I should inform that I only play real time and only TripleA. I use this forums to discuss strats and other issues. There are also lot of players who read and post in the forums who only play in local playgroup f2f.

I understand that most people don’t have time for several hours to play a game, it’s more convenient to make some moves and post in the forum, or by savegame.
I can probably find players in the unstable lobby who will play as allies w/o bids in a ADS game and no tech. So if I don’t play against players on this forum I will get a feeling for axis bias and game balance as when playing LL.

The big problem with ADS vs. Low Luck is that in ADS there is a pretty high chance because of the large number of must-win battles the Axis have to perform that one of them will fail and Low Luck changes almost all of them to guaranteed wins. And I think that is why ADS doesn’t need a bid but LL probably does.

Case in point. I have played about 5 games as the Axis and already I have lost Bst(3 inf, 1 art, 1 fig, 1 CA vs. 3 inf) twice and Philippines(2 inf, 1 art, 1 arm v. 2 inf) once. In Low Luck, those battles would never have been lost.

And as for Egypt, the roughly 40% chance that the UK retains control even when Germany brings the bomber is hard to swallow. I consider a cleared result with just the German bomber surviving as a favorable result for the Allies because it’s not the taking of Egypt that is the problem, it’s the German armor blitzing through Africa unapposed for the next 2 turns that really hurts the UK economy. If those armor don’t survive, it takes Italy forever to get units down through the Sudan and by then the Australian units can be landing to plug the gap.

[bugoo]

no with the saved file is a history while in game where you can review every turn and every move made by everyone in a list.  Imagine a PBF game without the dice rolling in the posts and that is what the history will show you, move for move with the map.  It is a really neat way to review your games and see what went well, wrong, etc.  Sorry if i’m not describing it well.

It doesn’t take long to dl tripleA, doesn’t even need installed just unzipped.  Give it a try!

[Funcioneta]

@Subotai:

@Funcioneta:

@Subotai:

@Funcioneta:

Allies need 3-5 more inf in Yunnan. It would be balanced. But not 3-5 more inf in Egypt or East Poland, that would be unbalanced

I think I will win more often than not with a 3 inf bid for allies in Yunnan.

As allies or as axis?

As axis. I agree that a 3 inf bid for UK or Russia, or a combination is probably too strong.

Yep, for that reason I think it’s better bid chinese units. I think 4 is the minimal, but probably we need more

[Bigtiti]

without NO’s?
wel, agreed, Japan is a pain in the ass
but germany and italy get nothing!
nothing!
if US lands in france, and UK at baltic staes, karelia, poland, northwest europe, the germans can’t beat them back
then they get at max 10 inf each turn
the same for italy
berlin falls much sooner than moscow

with NO’s
it’s 50-50 i think
(perhaps with a small advantage for axis, also depends on KJF or KGF)

[Lucifer]

The discussion is if allies or axis have advantage with NOs. There should not be any disagreement that allies are favored w/o NOs in both setups.

So far, I probably played 10-15 games in ADS, and its definately more difficult to win as axis with regular dice than LL.

[Funcioneta]

That’s logical: the side who has the starting advantage is favored by standard results, and the one who has the disadvantage only wins due bad planning by the other side or due wacky dices

Also, I assume LL players don’t play with tech, and playing without tech favors slightly allies in early game because you have not rogue paras or LRA italian (or jap) can oppeners -> Moscow and Stalingrad easier to defend. Also, Germany cannot build 12 guys a round or 4 guys in Egypt and Japan cannot build 5 guys in India, 4 in Alaska or 3 in China wastelands  :-D Germany has also some nice to do with her IPCs when she earns 50 a round  :wink:

[Corbeau Blanc]

To use a bad historic exemple, if Japan had Low Luck at Midway, USA would have lost badly.

I constantly have to play low luck with one of my friend as he beileive he is the most unlucky guy on the planet. This remove one of the most important aspect of the game, gambling.  I had to expressly forbide him from using the battle calculator so he had a bit of guessing to do but that barely helped.

With ADS if you want sure wins, you have to commit more than the bare minimum. Without it, the game lose much of it’s flavor. Opening are created, unexpected situations appears and it’s a whole new ball game.

In all cases, I find it strange that axis would see ADS going against them, especially on the russian front, Uk fleet or pacific islands where you already can do an overwhelming attack pretty much ensuring no retaliation can be viably made before round 2.

When I play allies with LL, It become only a game of numbers. All you have to do is contain your opponent after round 1, don’t offer him any stack, create deadzones and use your prod to slowly overcome him in stack strenght. It’s always a long game but I never ever sweated on theses LL. You already know the battle outcomes when you decide to commit forces.

So stacks and prod is in my mind the best allies advantage, in ADS you need even bigger stacks to really create deadzones aka making sure that if you attack, you win. ADS in my experience favors axis as long they don’t start to spread thin everywhere in a ‘‘must take 1st round’’ minding.

[Lucifer]

I think I won more ADS games with axis (+NOs) than I lost, but it is more difficult to win with axis in ADS games then LL, few would disagree with this. I thought there was no difference, b/c it’s no difference regarding game balalance in AAR, but in AA50 the first rnd setup is completely different then revised, and this affects LL vs ADS. And the difference is not only change of TUV, but some battles have chain-reaction-effects when it comes to several first rnd battles. If in some attacks the result is a draw, then its mostly about TUV change, but some losses will actually lose the game for axis in the very first rnd.
This things doesn’t happen in LL, and thats why allies should have a bid of 3-9, depending on the experience of the players. In ADS games, there’s no need for bids yet, imo, but AA50 takes longer to learn then revised, so our perception about balance and strats are subject to change.

[souL]

I’m on your side in LL now, I took the Axis the last 3 times and it’s been a total romp LL.  The way the game is designed, where the dice are rolled, you’re probably going to have a dual-win% in Kar/Egy around 30%, whereas in LL they’re afterthoughts, almost 100%.  I’d say these are two different games entirely.