G1 naval build?

[cymerdown]

@Woodstock:

Do you just buy all tanks and bmb in G1 to compensate the lack of units that could otherwise reach the more eastern areas in G2?
Do you attack Karelia in G1?
Which sea zones do you attack in G1?

1. The problem is that you can’t just consider what is going to happen on the next turn when figuring out your strategy.  It’s not really worth it to spend 14 IPC so that transport lives and two more units can get to the east before it gets destroyed by the UK.  You have to think about it this way: is there a way to blitz Russia and just take Moscow within the first few turns, no matter what the Allies do?  If the answer is no, and it is according to what I’ve seen, then you’re going to have to trade units with Russia and fight over territory to win.  What are the most cost-efficient units to lose?  Infantry.  Does Germany have enough to start with to trade with Russia for the rest of the game?  No way.  What units take the most time to get to the eastern front?  Infantry.  So you need to build mostly infantry in the beginning so they have enough time to walk east and become useful by turn 3-4.  Another thing to think about is “Can Germany afford to both compete with a UK/US navy arms war AND a full land unit build by Russia at the same time?”  If you’re only planning on buying a carrier and then giving up on your navy investment, then why spend the IPC on starting the arms war in the first place?  Just having the starting transport live another round isn’t worth the expenditure of the equivalent of 4 land units.  Otherwise, if you plan on continuing to buy navy, then how is Russia going to be stopped from marching west?  Germany just doesn’t have the resources to invest in both, at least not unless they are left alone to fight Russia for a while.

In terms of cost-efficiency, it goes Land > Air > Navy.  So why not defend the Atlantic front with Land and Air units, and let the Allies pour their money in buying Navy and Air to invade with, since they have to?  You’ll be able to hold onto your IPCs and territories the longest that way.

2. I prefer to take Baltic States and EPL hard, so Russia can’t counterattack those.  Then I have 6 ARM, 2 ART and a bunch of INF pointing at Karelia next turn.  Russia’s best move is to 1-man it and trade it with me for a turn or two.  The rest depends on what the other Allies are doing.

3. I kill 2, 6, and 12 to get rid of as much navy as I can.  UK will rebuild, but it will delay their ability to build transports.  Additionally, after turn 1, I build 1 air unit/turn to keep threat over the Atlantic and for mobile attack/defense.  Pretty standard German strategy, I think.

[bugoo]

The problem with that is

1. there is no way russia cannot counter attack baltic on R1, they have 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm that can reach, you would have to weaken your other attacks immensely to do so.  Now yes you have units in Finland, and I got UK trannies in range, usually enough to take Finland, Norway, and Karelia if I want on UK/US turn 2 if I desire.  Then you best hope russia doesn’t push real hard in the south and take a 3rd for the 10 IPC NO.

2. if the UK player cannot figure out a way to build a transport and fleet protection with 43! IPCs on turn 1, then they are not a good player, esp when you have 2 figs laying around and usually atleast 2 destroyers.  Unless of course Germany goes heavy air, which then negates the effect of units fighting Russia.  Just spending 14 IPCs on 1 carrier gives the allied fleet 22244, add in destroyers or cruisers as you choose (cruisers if germany went light on air, destroyers if they went heavy).

[cymerdown]

They can try to attack 2 INF, 2 ART, 4 ARM, but it’s gonna be painful.  Yeah, I take Ukraine super-weak on purpose.  I play a “preserve attacking pieces above all else” type of style.

UK should have just 1 DD with normal odds with how I do G1.  And yeah, UK can build just a CV to survive their fleet, as long as they build in SZ 2 or 8.  I’d build a BB as well if I were them just to be safe, and then they’d have enough cash left for 1 TRN.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

My first AA50 game w/o NOs I bought a carrier on G1.  Biggest mistake.  I also left my subs idle, and ignored the British fleet.

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

A carrier on G1?  It was doable in Revised when Germany had 10 extra IPCs and 2 extra fighters.  Maybe on G2 w/ NO, but never G1.

In a long game, a fleet is eventually needed.  Otherwise, make a B-line to Moscow.

[Blaarg]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

:roll: yah, you’re right

[Bardoly]

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

[atarihuana]

2bombers 8 inf^^

[Blaarg]

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

[Bardoly]

@Blaarg:

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

Very, very true.
I was just making the point that often (at least once per game) you realize that if you had just saved 1 IPC last turn by purchasing an art instead of that arm (or something like that), that you could buy what you really wanted to buy this turn.  For G1, I usually spend all 31 IPCs, but for some of my stategies, I feel that on G2 that I will need that 1 extra IPC, so I only spend 30 instead of all 31.

[Blaarg]

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

Very, very true.
I was just making the point that often (at least once per game) you realize that if you had just saved 1 IPC last turn by purchasing an art instead of that arm (or something like that), that you could buy what you really wanted to buy this turn.  For G1, I usually spend all 31 IPCs, but for some of my stategies, I feel that on G2 that I will need that 1 extra IPC, so I only spend 30 instead of all 31.

I understand what you say, but unless you’re building something awesome, it’s better to have units deployed and moving sooner rather then later.

[Fenian]

Personally i think the value of the german navy is two fold.

It provides something else for UK to think about.  I think it makes it much less likely for you to see UK IC’s popping up UK1 or 2 if germany has demonstrated a clear intent to pursue a strong baltic navy.

Secondally it provides a shortening of the supply lines to the eastern front.  I would consider a carrier + transport G1 buy.  Possibly followed up with a second carrier buy G2, with steady destroyer purchases G3 and on.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

My first AA50 game w/o NOs I bought a carrier on G1.  Biggest mistake.  I also left my subs idle, and ignored the British fleet.

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

A carrier on G1?  It was doable in Revised when Germany had 10 extra IPCs and 2 extra fighters.  Maybe on G2 w/ NO, but never G1.

In a long game, a fleet is eventually needed.  Otherwise, make a B-line to Moscow.

Perhaps I should have clarified.  In my house rules, Germany gets mechanized infantry, in which case I value faster infantry over slow artillery.

If the game has NOs, w/ Germany getting 50+ IPCs a turn, my strategy will often be to build 10 tanks each turn, pledging to hit Moscow w/ successive tank waves.  :evil:

Again, there are many factors that go into each decision in A&A, and a German fleet does require the consideration of several factors.

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

[cymerdown]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

[dondoolee]

I can’t really say I would support a german navy, but I could see buying a sub or 2 to be OK as you could use that in conjunction with an airforce to threaten/hold at bay the Allied navy.  Subs are cheap and hard to kill in a way, now I don’t know if you have the time to waste on building them but that is the only viable way I could see building any navel units for germany.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@cymerdown:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

I agree.  Also, even if a game doesn’t start as a KGF, it can certainly become that if Germany gets too aggressive towards US and UK….or Moscow is about to fall.  :roll: Also, the fleet is bottled up in the Baltic to begin with.  Even if you can fight you’re way out, forget getting back.  The best thing is to link up with the Italian fleet.  You won’t last long in the open ocean, and that’s just the thing.  The purpose of a Navy is to control sections of an ocean, and Germany can never do that.

Geography is important.  Some countries just weren’t meant to have a fleet.  Germany and Russia aren’t sea goers.  Japan and UK are, and in fact, a fleet is vital for them, while a fleet is almost suicidal for Germany and Russia.

In a way, I think the whole question of having a German Navy answers itself:  “If you have to ask… NO!”

[jsp4563]

@Bardoly:

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

I’ve always gone with a CV build also.  The BB, DD build sounds interesting.  +1 Karma also!

[dondoolee]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a couple subs if the opportunity presents itself.  You still threaten the allied fleet, they cost 4 less than a fighter, and they provide cheap fodder, plus they could back up the Italian navy if need be.  They’ll probably be hanging out in the Med sea just to be safe anyway.  On top of that they “cheapen” the value of defending carriers and there is a chance they can hit transports before your airplanes can.  I don’t know how many opportunities in a game Germany could build subs, but the concept is nice

[jsp4563]

My problem with subs is they defend at 1 and are useless as fodder against air attacks.  They don’t seem to be very useful in the Atlantic, i have had some success with them in the Pacific.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Emperor:

@Bardoly:

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

I’ve always gone with a CV build also.  The BB, DD build sounds interesting.  +1 Karma also!

Yes, good idea, not going carrier.  My first AA50 game I bought a carrier. Worst A&A decission I’ve ever made.

Still, if feel the German fleet is just a pipe dream.  Yes, I played a game where Germany actually had more ships than US and UK in the Atlantic, but that was a heavy, KJF game. 
Hitler thought the Kaiser was stupid for building a fleet for several reasons:
1. It could be bottled up in the Baltic too easily. 
2. Just can’t compete w/ UK
3. Simply trying to compete w/ UK only got the UK pissed off, eventually leading to war.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Fuhrer on this one.  A German fleet is waste of IPCs.  It will eventually get destroyed, period.  And what strategic objective would you have achieved?  None, just blowing up a few UK/US ships, which you could have done with air.  So what if it ties up Allied fleets and take them down with you?  The Allies can afford to trade units with you.  By building a fleet, you play into the Allies’ hands, because it distracts you from Russia, and forces you to trade units you can’t afford to trade.  Your goal is Moscow. 
Let me repeat it.

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!