G1 naval build?

[atarihuana]

2bombers 8 inf^^

[Blaarg]

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

[Bardoly]

@Blaarg:

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

Very, very true.
I was just making the point that often (at least once per game) you realize that if you had just saved 1 IPC last turn by purchasing an art instead of that arm (or something like that), that you could buy what you really wanted to buy this turn.  For G1, I usually spend all 31 IPCs, but for some of my stategies, I feel that on G2 that I will need that 1 extra IPC, so I only spend 30 instead of all 31.

[Blaarg]

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

Very, very true.
I was just making the point that often (at least once per game) you realize that if you had just saved 1 IPC last turn by purchasing an art instead of that arm (or something like that), that you could buy what you really wanted to buy this turn.  For G1, I usually spend all 31 IPCs, but for some of my stategies, I feel that on G2 that I will need that 1 extra IPC, so I only spend 30 instead of all 31.

I understand what you say, but unless you’re building something awesome, it’s better to have units deployed and moving sooner rather then later.

[Fenian]

Personally i think the value of the german navy is two fold.

It provides something else for UK to think about.  I think it makes it much less likely for you to see UK IC’s popping up UK1 or 2 if germany has demonstrated a clear intent to pursue a strong baltic navy.

Secondally it provides a shortening of the supply lines to the eastern front.  I would consider a carrier + transport G1 buy.  Possibly followed up with a second carrier buy G2, with steady destroyer purchases G3 and on.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

My first AA50 game w/o NOs I bought a carrier on G1.  Biggest mistake.  I also left my subs idle, and ignored the British fleet.

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

A carrier on G1?  It was doable in Revised when Germany had 10 extra IPCs and 2 extra fighters.  Maybe on G2 w/ NO, but never G1.

In a long game, a fleet is eventually needed.  Otherwise, make a B-line to Moscow.

Perhaps I should have clarified.  In my house rules, Germany gets mechanized infantry, in which case I value faster infantry over slow artillery.

If the game has NOs, w/ Germany getting 50+ IPCs a turn, my strategy will often be to build 10 tanks each turn, pledging to hit Moscow w/ successive tank waves.  :evil:

Again, there are many factors that go into each decision in A&A, and a German fleet does require the consideration of several factors.

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

[cymerdown]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

[dondoolee]

I can’t really say I would support a german navy, but I could see buying a sub or 2 to be OK as you could use that in conjunction with an airforce to threaten/hold at bay the Allied navy.  Subs are cheap and hard to kill in a way, now I don’t know if you have the time to waste on building them but that is the only viable way I could see building any navel units for germany.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@cymerdown:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

I agree.  Also, even if a game doesn’t start as a KGF, it can certainly become that if Germany gets too aggressive towards US and UK….or Moscow is about to fall.  :roll: Also, the fleet is bottled up in the Baltic to begin with.  Even if you can fight you’re way out, forget getting back.  The best thing is to link up with the Italian fleet.  You won’t last long in the open ocean, and that’s just the thing.  The purpose of a Navy is to control sections of an ocean, and Germany can never do that.

Geography is important.  Some countries just weren’t meant to have a fleet.  Germany and Russia aren’t sea goers.  Japan and UK are, and in fact, a fleet is vital for them, while a fleet is almost suicidal for Germany and Russia.

In a way, I think the whole question of having a German Navy answers itself:  “If you have to ask… NO!”

[jsp4563]

@Bardoly:

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

I’ve always gone with a CV build also.  The BB, DD build sounds interesting.  +1 Karma also!

[dondoolee]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a couple subs if the opportunity presents itself.  You still threaten the allied fleet, they cost 4 less than a fighter, and they provide cheap fodder, plus they could back up the Italian navy if need be.  They’ll probably be hanging out in the Med sea just to be safe anyway.  On top of that they “cheapen” the value of defending carriers and there is a chance they can hit transports before your airplanes can.  I don’t know how many opportunities in a game Germany could build subs, but the concept is nice

[jsp4563]

My problem with subs is they defend at 1 and are useless as fodder against air attacks.  They don’t seem to be very useful in the Atlantic, i have had some success with them in the Pacific.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Emperor:

@Bardoly:

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

I’ve always gone with a CV build also.  The BB, DD build sounds interesting.  +1 Karma also!

Yes, good idea, not going carrier.  My first AA50 game I bought a carrier. Worst A&A decission I’ve ever made.

Still, if feel the German fleet is just a pipe dream.  Yes, I played a game where Germany actually had more ships than US and UK in the Atlantic, but that was a heavy, KJF game. 
Hitler thought the Kaiser was stupid for building a fleet for several reasons:
1. It could be bottled up in the Baltic too easily. 
2. Just can’t compete w/ UK
3. Simply trying to compete w/ UK only got the UK pissed off, eventually leading to war.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Fuhrer on this one.  A German fleet is waste of IPCs.  It will eventually get destroyed, period.  And what strategic objective would you have achieved?  None, just blowing up a few UK/US ships, which you could have done with air.  So what if it ties up Allied fleets and take them down with you?  The Allies can afford to trade units with you.  By building a fleet, you play into the Allies’ hands, because it distracts you from Russia, and forces you to trade units you can’t afford to trade.  Your goal is Moscow. 
Let me repeat it.

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

[Woodstock]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Yes, good idea, not going carrier.  My first AA50 game I bought a carrier. Worst A&A decission I’ve ever made.

Still, if feel the German fleet is just a pipe dream.  Yes, I played a game where Germany actually had more ships than US and UK in the Atlantic, but that was a heavy, KJF game. 
Hitler thought the Kaiser was stupid for building a fleet for several reasons:
1. It could be bottled up in the Baltic too easily. 
2. Just can’t compete w/ UK
3. Simply trying to compete w/ UK only got the UK pissed off, eventually leading to war.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Fuhrer on this one.  A German fleet is waste of IPCs.  It will eventually get destroyed, period.  And what strategic objective would you have achieved?  None, just blowing up a few UK/US ships, which you could have done with air.  So what if it ties up Allied fleets and take them down with you?  The Allies can afford to trade units with you.  By building a fleet, you play into the Allies’ hands, because it distracts you from Russia, and forces you to trade units you can’t afford to trade.  Your goal is Moscow. 
Let me repeat it.

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

True.
But whoever said that the Germans have to take Moscow? With each and every game I have won as the Axis, Moscow was taken by the Japanese.

Let me explain my rationale:

Almost everyone here plays the Race for Moscow with Germany vs Race for Berlin with USA/UK strategy.

What I try to achieve is break that habit, as that strategy has quite the odds to go wrong for the Axis.
Thus, I build a German navy. And here’s why.

Situation 1: Allies go full KGF.
Let them come. With Germany not focusing too much on Russia, that is one tough nut to crack. Especially if they have to deal with a decent German navy aswell.
Played well, the Allies are gonna be needing at least 6 turns before they can even pose a decent (and continous!) threat to the German shores. (Imagine what Germany can put in land, sea and air in 6 turns, and then count what the Allies can do in those 6 turns, with Japan snatching IPC’s from them everywhere).

By that 6th turn, Japan is knocking on Moscow’s doors.

Yeah, but you’re Baltic fleet will be blown to bits. So what’s the point?
Well…that is exactly the point. I’m building units to fight. And if anyone tries to attack the Baltic fleet, that fleet will defend, and take down quite some expensive units. Units, that at least UK, are unable to replace easily, setting the Allies back a couple of rounds.
By then, the fleet has served it’s purpose.

Situation 2: Allies see my Baltic built, and go KJF.
Great, I’ll go and play with UK. Good luck pulling off a KJF while UK is under heavy fire. Or I use the fleet to form a quick bridge to Karelia. Even better.

[DarthMaximus]

@Woodstock:

Yeah, but you’re Baltic fleet will be blown to bits. So what’s the point?
Well…that is exactly the point. I’m building units to fight. And if anyone tries to attack the Baltic fleet, that fleet will defend, and take down quite some expensive units. Units, that at least UK, are unable to replace easily, setting the Allies back a couple of rounds.
By then, the fleet has served it’s purpose.

Did Ger buy a DD?
If not, UK buys a bunch of subs (3-7 depending on threat and board layout) on UK 1.
G2 - Germany forced to buy at least 1 dd or lose surface ships to subs surprise attack.
Whether Ger buys a DD or not UK attacks with 3-7 subs (depends on UK 1 buy) and 2 ftrs, 1 bom.

The subs can only hit ships and UK can always manage its OOL to have 1-2 subs for a 2nd round attack to sink any AC.

[dondoolee]

@Emperor:

My problem with subs is they defend at 1 and are useless as fodder against air attacks.  They don’t seem to be very useful in the Atlantic, i have had some success with them in the Pacific.

I see little or no use to them for the allies, or Italy.  Japan and the US may have a need for them in the pacific.  Germany I find kind of unique.  If you get them in the Med, hell at least you have fodder to get better use of the Italian fleet (barring a massive air raid). On Germany’s T1 turn you can do an aggresive Tank build and have 6 left over, I think the 6 for the sub is a legit build in that situation, and after that start building planes when Germany is taking in more money.  But the subs defense isn’t so much it defends at 1 as much as it is hard to hit (destroyers needed) and if you are doing an Attack on the Allied navy with Air and subs you have good fodder with the added bonus of the nasty attack they carry.

I am not saying it is the best build, but it has some allure to me (maybe because I haven’t tried it yet).  The fact that they are 4 cheaper than planes, can tear through ships faster, pressure the Allied navy, and “cheapen” carriers, act as Air Raid Fodder,  act as Italian navy fodder, and are hard to hit so have realitvly free movement, really makes a sporadic sub appealing to me.  However going hog wild on subs (I see no way someone could build more than 3 in a normal game and justify it) is a sure fire way to lose for Germany

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Woodstock:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Yes, good idea, not going carrier.  My first AA50 game I bought a carrier. Worst A&A decission I’ve ever made.

Still, if feel the German fleet is just a pipe dream.  Yes, I played a game where Germany actually had more ships than US and UK in the Atlantic, but that was a heavy, KJF game. 
Hitler thought the Kaiser was stupid for building a fleet for several reasons:
1. It could be bottled up in the Baltic too easily. 
2. Just can’t compete w/ UK
3. Simply trying to compete w/ UK only got the UK pissed off, eventually leading to war.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with the Fuhrer on this one.  A German fleet is waste of IPCs.  It will eventually get destroyed, period.  And what strategic objective would you have achieved?  None, just blowing up a few UK/US ships, which you could have done with air.  So what if it ties up Allied fleets and take them down with you?  The Allies can afford to trade units with you.  By building a fleet, you play into the Allies’ hands, because it distracts you from Russia, and forces you to trade units you can’t afford to trade.  Your goal is Moscow. 
Let me repeat it.

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

Key to Axis Victory:Moscow!!!

True.
But whoever said that the Germans have to take Moscow? With each and every game I have won as the Axis, Moscow was taken by the Japanese.

Let me explain my rationale:

Almost everyone here plays the Race for Moscow with Germany vs Race for Berlin with USA/UK strategy.

What I try to achieve is break that habit, as that strategy has quite the odds to go wrong for the Axis.
Thus, I build a German navy. And here’s why.

Situation 1: Allies go full KGF.
Let them come. With Germany not focusing too much on Russia, that is one tough nut to crack. Especially if they have to deal with a decent German navy aswell.
Played well, the Allies are gonna be needing at least 6 turns before they can even pose a decent (and continous!) threat to the German shores. (Imagine what Germany can put in land, sea and air in 6 turns, and then count what the Allies can do in those 6 turns, with Japan snatching IPC’s from them everywhere).

By that 6th turn, Japan is knocking on Moscow’s doors.

Yeah, but you’re Baltic fleet will be blown to bits. So what’s the point?
Well…that is exactly the point. I’m building units to fight. And if anyone tries to attack the Baltic fleet, that fleet will defend, and take down quite some expensive units. Units, that at least UK, are unable to replace easily, setting the Allies back a couple of rounds.
By then, the fleet has served it’s purpose.

Situation 2: Allies see my Baltic built, and go KJF.
Great, I’ll go and play with UK. Good luck pulling off a KJF while UK is under heavy fire. Or I use the fleet to form a quick bridge to Karelia. Even better.

Yes, Japan takes Moscow in KGF.  The thing is, if you really want to take pressure off Japan, you’re best bet is to go hard for Moscow, not build a fleet.  The best a large fleet can do scare the allies away towards Japan.  Then what, blockade UK, b/c it’s can’t drop a huge fleet due to protecting its Empire via India, South Africa, Australia ICs?  Germany can’t invade UK unless UK is stupid, or till it has already taken Moscow, and by then, its Game Over.

Yes, you can potentially clear the Atlantic with a huge fleet, but so can a huge air force, which doesn’t have to sit idle during a KJF game.

[dondoolee]

I have a hard time understanding how the Axis could survive with people advocate building expensive fleets for both Germany AND Italy.  It seems some people are just obsessed with building fleets.  An airplane is more verstile and cost effective.  Not to mention buying fleets= money not beeing sent to kill Russia= literally, buying the Allies time.

The Allies HAVE to have an unskinable fleet, you can not count on a strategy to sink it. If you sink it it means the Allies have: already either dealt their death blow, made a mistake in calculation, or you experienced incredible luck.  In other words if the fleet goes down it is due to an Allied error not a superior German strat.  The Allies can only blame themselves (or god awful luck) if their fleet gets sunk.  This is just the way the game is designed.  You are better off directing the West to waste their transport drops, screwing around with them a little in Africa for example, you should relish moments when large Allied forces are in Africa with little Axis forces in Africa (Remember the Japs can have a little fun here too).  I would even say, if it sets them back for 2 turns and higher materiel costs, entice them into trading W Europe.  Depend more on the allies making these mistakes than a mistake with them getting their fleet sunk, as the Axis are going to still be building much more valuable ground or air units.

Kill Russia, worry about sending just enough to the West or Africa to keep you alive, those are your secondary theaters.  Every other piece of land you take, kill you make, or defensive bolstering you do should be seen as a “neccesary evil” for killing Russia.  If need be, you should even sacrifice Italy or maybe even W Europe (And if Japan has turned into a monster and is going to deliver the killing blow, even Germany itslef) if it means you can Kill Russia.  Because of this, I don’t see navy building as an optimal strat for the Western Axis (Japan works a bit different).

[Woodstock]

@dondoolee:

I have a hard time understanding how the Axis could survive with people advocate building expensive fleets for both Germany AND Italy.

I have a bunch of old TripleA games on my hard drive that could make you help understand? ;-)

It seems some people are just obsessed with building fleets.  An airplane is more verstile and cost effective.  Not to mention buying fleets= money not beeing sent to kill Russia= literally, buying the Allies time.

I am not obsessed with buying fleets, I just really…really hate an empty Baltic sea. This gives the UK a whole lot of territories to land on.
And as I said before: Russia is for Japan. My goal with Germany is to survive untill Japan reaches Moscow. A lot more secure then the Race to Moscow with Germany vs Race to Berlin with Allies - kind of games.

[Woodstock]

You are better off directing the West to waste their transport drops, screwing around with them a little in Africa for example, you should relish moments when large Allied forces are in Africa with little Axis forces in Africa (Remember the Japs can have a little fun here too).  I would even say, if it sets them back for 2 turns and higher materiel costs, entice them into trading W Europe.  Depend more on the allies making these mistakes than a mistake with them getting their fleet sunk, as the Axis are going to still be building much more valuable ground or air units.

Kill Russia, worry about sending just enough to the West or Africa to keep you alive, those are your secondary theaters.  Every other piece of land you take, kill you make, or defensive bolstering you do should be seen as a “neccesary evil” for killing Russia.  If need be, you should even sacrifice Italy or maybe even W Europe (And if Japan has turned into a monster and is going to deliver the killing blow, even Germany itslef) if it means you can Kill Russia.  Because of this, I don’t see navy building as an optimal strat for the Western Axis (Japan works a bit different).

And funny you mention all this, because for some reason I manage to do it all (be a pain in Afrika etc), even with a Naval build.
And I do have Japan take Russia…but then without giving up Italy, West Europe, and most definitely Germany…
Maybe I just play sucky Allied players…

The only downside I would see is if JApan is heavily attacked from all sides, and all ways to Russia are efficiently locked up. Then I could indeed see a problem. However, that can only be achieved with heavy Russian and British investments, which can only help Germany.