G1 naval build?

[a44bigdog]

What does Germany gain from a G1 Naval build? Use of 1 transport and cruiser bombardment for what 2 more turns? At minimum it is going to take a CV with FGT on board to even keep the UK out on UK 1. That is 14 IPC spent for a 2 defense unit. Now that Germany has plunked down that carrier as the Allies build up with either navy or Air assets threatening it the Germans have to respond or just loose what they have invested in the fleet. That same 14 IPCs is 3 INF and 1 ARM. I think I would rather shove that into France than a carrier I can’t support in the Baltic. Also the 3 INF 1 ARM does not have to go to France it can fight the Russians, defend Germany, it has options.

Germany can hold France, and personally I think it should. France gives the UK 11 IPCs they have no business getting. The UK’s money quickly dwindles away. A defensive presence and a purchase of a bomber per round forces them in a bad spot. They have to have a large invasion force to even hope to take France. They also have to have a large fleet to deter the Luftwaffe from simply smashing it. Yes America can come along for the ride and if they do Japan needs to make for Alaska/W. US. Also if the US is stacked with the UK in sea zone 7 they are not threatening Italy so Italy can help defend France as well.

Now I am not saying Germany should never build ships. I am saying G1 is completely the wrong time to do so. If the Baltic fleet should live a round or two, board conditions may allow the purchase of a carrier and some follow on buys to make sure it stays there. Also at this point a decent small fleet with 2 or 3 transports can really be a bear for the Russians in Karelia if it is not solidly German or Even England itself.

[Woodstock]

a44, even though I agree with it in theory 100%, but when I set it out at the board, I always tend to change again.

A couple thoughts that occur to me when actually looking at the situation:

- Without the transport in G2, you are short two extra guys that can attack then the more eastern territories.

That gives me 2 questions:
Do you just buy all tanks and bmb in G1 to compensate the lack of units that could otherwise reach the areas?
Do you attack Karelia in G1?

The only way to protect that transport after G1, is with added navy

What is the best naval buy? Etc…

That last I don’t need an answer to, but I am damn curious to everyone’s opinion on the first 2 q’s:

Do you just buy all tanks and bmb in G1 to compensate the lack of units that could otherwise reach the more eastern areas in G2?
Do you attack Karelia in G1?
Which sea zones do you attack in G1?

I am sorry, I am heading to my first actual AA:50 game in 5 days, and I am facing a hell of a russian player, so I’m rather nervous and am looking for the best G1 move ;-)

[SgtBlitz]

Woodstock:

Have you tried out TripleA?  They just finished the AA50 map, and it works pretty good.  It’s a great way to practice figuring out the game without setting up the damn board.  There’s usually always players on in the lobby, and most are helpful in getting the program to work.

If you’re playing your first game against an exp Russian player, I’d advise NOT buying a carrier(s) G1.  The baltic strat worked well some of the time in Revised but in AA50 the UK’s early ipc count of 41 plus NOs means you’re being outbought with ships they can afford to lose for rounds B1-3.  You CAN hold the baltic with a double carrier buy, but then you’re tying down your entire air force, which won’t work with the Russians incoming.  You need those 3s and 4s fighting the Reds or holding France.

What I like to do is build at least 1 fighter or bomber a turn for defense/trading of land territories and gradually bring the number of fighters up over the course of the game.  Fighters have the mobility to attack/defend several zones away and moreover aren’t waiting around to be blown up in the baltic, plus they’re cheaper.  Once the allies get complacent with their fleets in thinking their boat stacks are unassailable and start building all land units for shucking to europe you can surprise them with the 8-10 fighters + bombers you’ve been saving up.

The extra fighters are also helpful if the Japanese can get through the Suez or around S. America and attack the atlantic fleets (usually around round 4-5, and also assuming opponent is KGF).  I’ve found if the italians build 1-2 carriers in the med, merge with the japanese fleets and have germ/jap fighters land on them, its VERY hard for the allies to beat a combined axis naval stack.  Britain and America usually have spread out their naval buys to half transports/land units and will have to respond by stacking themselves or sacrificing their fleet.  By the time they are done rebuilding (if you haven’t outright taken over the atlantic) Russia should be finished.

Good luck on your game Fri.

[bugoo]

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

[Bardoly]

@bugoo:

Please note, I am not saying that a German Baltic fleet is a good idea, but if your going to do it, this is how I would pursue it and the reasons why.

G1: Purchase BB, DD, and 1 inf
Now why no carrier? Simple, the fleet i bought would give me another shore shot at 4, would survive the UK turn 1 air force, and would be good fodder against the UK fleet.  A carrier grants very little extra offensive capability in any way shape or form, and is easily destroyed by subs, or subs +air, and limits my G1 attacks on the UK fleet as my planes have to land on it.  I would also shuttle the 1 inf, 1 art to Finland on G1.  This forces Russia to pull back on R1 and grant me my 3rd NO even if they do take Baltic States (which with 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm you should attack there R1 almost every game.)

G2: Choose.
If the UK went air heavy, purchase however many destroyers it would take to ensure they loose most of there air power, or an AC.
-This buys you more time against the UK building a fleet, and usually gives you enough time to have enough airpower to keep there fleet at the bottom of the ocean.  Remember, UKs income goes down as the game goes on, yours goes up.  They have 1-2 turns to get something going, then they no longer matter typically.
If the UK went fleet heavy, purchase a destroyer a round and possibly extra transports.
-This allows you to hold Finland, Norway, and Karelia for most of the game as you are shuttling up infantry while sending in tanks to reinforce. It helps you maintain good trades with Russia for most of the game as you use inf+air deep in there territory. Meanwhile, Italy has some breathing room and can help hold the Russians back in the south.  Also, that fleet can latter be sacrificed with your air to sink the UK fleet when it becomes advantageous to do so.

The big thing is not to get caught into a ‘race to the larger fleet’ with the UK and to make sure Italy uses the extra time wisely.  Now yes this opens you up even more to a KGF from the allies, but thats why japan goes hulk smash.

Hmm, I’ve never really given much thought to a non-cv/non-ss G1 naval build.  One could always through down a cv or 2 on G2 or 3 if needed to beef up the fleet.  I like this thought.  +1 Karma

[cymerdown]

@Woodstock:

Do you just buy all tanks and bmb in G1 to compensate the lack of units that could otherwise reach the more eastern areas in G2?
Do you attack Karelia in G1?
Which sea zones do you attack in G1?

1. The problem is that you can’t just consider what is going to happen on the next turn when figuring out your strategy.  It’s not really worth it to spend 14 IPC so that transport lives and two more units can get to the east before it gets destroyed by the UK.  You have to think about it this way: is there a way to blitz Russia and just take Moscow within the first few turns, no matter what the Allies do?  If the answer is no, and it is according to what I’ve seen, then you’re going to have to trade units with Russia and fight over territory to win.  What are the most cost-efficient units to lose?  Infantry.  Does Germany have enough to start with to trade with Russia for the rest of the game?  No way.  What units take the most time to get to the eastern front?  Infantry.  So you need to build mostly infantry in the beginning so they have enough time to walk east and become useful by turn 3-4.  Another thing to think about is “Can Germany afford to both compete with a UK/US navy arms war AND a full land unit build by Russia at the same time?”  If you’re only planning on buying a carrier and then giving up on your navy investment, then why spend the IPC on starting the arms war in the first place?  Just having the starting transport live another round isn’t worth the expenditure of the equivalent of 4 land units.  Otherwise, if you plan on continuing to buy navy, then how is Russia going to be stopped from marching west?  Germany just doesn’t have the resources to invest in both, at least not unless they are left alone to fight Russia for a while.

In terms of cost-efficiency, it goes Land > Air > Navy.  So why not defend the Atlantic front with Land and Air units, and let the Allies pour their money in buying Navy and Air to invade with, since they have to?  You’ll be able to hold onto your IPCs and territories the longest that way.

2. I prefer to take Baltic States and EPL hard, so Russia can’t counterattack those.  Then I have 6 ARM, 2 ART and a bunch of INF pointing at Karelia next turn.  Russia’s best move is to 1-man it and trade it with me for a turn or two.  The rest depends on what the other Allies are doing.

3. I kill 2, 6, and 12 to get rid of as much navy as I can.  UK will rebuild, but it will delay their ability to build transports.  Additionally, after turn 1, I build 1 air unit/turn to keep threat over the Atlantic and for mobile attack/defense.  Pretty standard German strategy, I think.

[bugoo]

The problem with that is

1. there is no way russia cannot counter attack baltic on R1, they have 7 inf, 1 art, and 1 arm that can reach, you would have to weaken your other attacks immensely to do so.  Now yes you have units in Finland, and I got UK trannies in range, usually enough to take Finland, Norway, and Karelia if I want on UK/US turn 2 if I desire.  Then you best hope russia doesn’t push real hard in the south and take a 3rd for the 10 IPC NO.

2. if the UK player cannot figure out a way to build a transport and fleet protection with 43! IPCs on turn 1, then they are not a good player, esp when you have 2 figs laying around and usually atleast 2 destroyers.  Unless of course Germany goes heavy air, which then negates the effect of units fighting Russia.  Just spending 14 IPCs on 1 carrier gives the allied fleet 22244, add in destroyers or cruisers as you choose (cruisers if germany went light on air, destroyers if they went heavy).

[cymerdown]

They can try to attack 2 INF, 2 ART, 4 ARM, but it’s gonna be painful.  Yeah, I take Ukraine super-weak on purpose.  I play a “preserve attacking pieces above all else” type of style.

UK should have just 1 DD with normal odds with how I do G1.  And yeah, UK can build just a CV to survive their fleet, as long as they build in SZ 2 or 8.  I’d build a BB as well if I were them just to be safe, and then they’d have enough cash left for 1 TRN.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

My first AA50 game w/o NOs I bought a carrier on G1.  Biggest mistake.  I also left my subs idle, and ignored the British fleet.

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

A carrier on G1?  It was doable in Revised when Germany had 10 extra IPCs and 2 extra fighters.  Maybe on G2 w/ NO, but never G1.

In a long game, a fleet is eventually needed.  Otherwise, make a B-line to Moscow.

[Blaarg]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

:roll: yah, you’re right

[Bardoly]

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

[atarihuana]

2bombers 8 inf^^

[Blaarg]

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

[Bardoly]

@Blaarg:

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

Very, very true.
I was just making the point that often (at least once per game) you realize that if you had just saved 1 IPC last turn by purchasing an art instead of that arm (or something like that), that you could buy what you really wanted to buy this turn.  For G1, I usually spend all 31 IPCs, but for some of my stategies, I feel that on G2 that I will need that 1 extra IPC, so I only spend 30 instead of all 31.

[Blaarg]

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Bardoly:

@Blaarg:

@Upside-down_Turtle:

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

If you’re going to do that, you might as well use your whole income and buy 9 infantry and an artillery.

Unless you think ahead to G2 and see that you need that 1 extra IPC to build that 1 extra unit on G2.

Generally, IPCs on the board now are worth more than IPCs on the board next turn.

Very, very true.
I was just making the point that often (at least once per game) you realize that if you had just saved 1 IPC last turn by purchasing an art instead of that arm (or something like that), that you could buy what you really wanted to buy this turn.  For G1, I usually spend all 31 IPCs, but for some of my stategies, I feel that on G2 that I will need that 1 extra IPC, so I only spend 30 instead of all 31.

I understand what you say, but unless you’re building something awesome, it’s better to have units deployed and moving sooner rather then later.

[Fenian]

Personally i think the value of the german navy is two fold.

It provides something else for UK to think about.  I think it makes it much less likely for you to see UK IC’s popping up UK1 or 2 if germany has demonstrated a clear intent to pursue a strong baltic navy.

Secondally it provides a shortening of the supply lines to the eastern front.  I would consider a carrier + transport G1 buy.  Possibly followed up with a second carrier buy G2, with steady destroyer purchases G3 and on.

[Upside-down_Turtle]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

My first AA50 game w/o NOs I bought a carrier on G1.  Biggest mistake.  I also left my subs idle, and ignored the British fleet.

Personally, I feel 10 inf is the best G1 buy in order to preempt Russia’s 10 inf buy.  This allows those inf to move to the front early.  The tanks can catch up.

A carrier on G1?  It was doable in Revised when Germany had 10 extra IPCs and 2 extra fighters.  Maybe on G2 w/ NO, but never G1.

In a long game, a fleet is eventually needed.  Otherwise, make a B-line to Moscow.

Perhaps I should have clarified.  In my house rules, Germany gets mechanized infantry, in which case I value faster infantry over slow artillery.

If the game has NOs, w/ Germany getting 50+ IPCs a turn, my strategy will often be to build 10 tanks each turn, pledging to hit Moscow w/ successive tank waves.  :evil:

Again, there are many factors that go into each decision in A&A, and a German fleet does require the consideration of several factors.

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

[cymerdown]

@Upside-down_Turtle:

I feel a German fleet should build under the following conditions:

1. Extensive damage done to the UK Atlantic fleet on G1 and/or G2. 
2. Taking Korellia on G1.  This allows you build up to 3 ships per tern and still be able to commit at least 10 inf to Russia per tern v their 8.
3. NOs are being used.  Extra income is essential. 
4. Not a KGF game.  If UK and US are pimping out their Atlantic Fleets, they will overwhelm you, making a fleet a very bad long term investment, @ the least.

4. Germany doesn’t know if it’s going to be a KGF game until after G1.  After G1, the Baltic fleet is dead anyway.  German fleet build is for Sealion or Sealion threat only

[dondoolee]

I can’t really say I would support a german navy, but I could see buying a sub or 2 to be OK as you could use that in conjunction with an airforce to threaten/hold at bay the Allied navy.  Subs are cheap and hard to kill in a way, now I don’t know if you have the time to waste on building them but that is the only viable way I could see building any navel units for germany.