@magnum I’m not yet convinced that letting them pick what they want, and potentially the same thing, is a problem. If anything, this will give them the opportunity to try out different strategies, involving research, and see how they work.
A&A50 Alternative Set-Up
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GERMANY ( $ 31 )
Sea Zone 5 – 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 6 – 1 Battleship
Sea Zone 7 – 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 8 – 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 13 – 1 Destroyer, 1 Submarine, 1 Transport
Norway – 3 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Finland – 2 Infantry
North-western Europe – 2 Infantry, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
France – 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 AA-Gun
Germany – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 3 Tanks, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Poland – 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 3 Tanks, 1 Fighter
Czechoslovakia / Hungary – 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Bulgaria / Romania – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 3 Tanks, 1 Fighter
Morocco / Algeria – 2 Infantry
Libya – 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank
SOVIET UNION ( $ 30 )
Sea Zone 4 – 1 Submarine
Karelia S.S.R – 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Archangel – 2 Infantry
Baltic States – 3 Infantry
Belorussia – 2 Infantry
Russia – 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Novosibirsk – 2 Infantry
East Poland – 3 Infantry
Eastern Ukraine – 2 Infantry
Ukraine – 2 Infantry
Caucasus – 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Kazakh S.S.R – 2 Infantry
Yukut S.S.R – 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Stanovoj Chrebet – 1 Infantry, 1 Artillery
Soviet Far East – 2 Infantry
Buryatia – 3 Infantry
UNITED KINGDOM ( $ 43 )
Sea Zone 2 – 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 9 – 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 12 – 1 Aircraft Carrier / 2 Fighters, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 27 – 1 Transport
Sea Zone 35 – 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 41 – 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Eastern Canada – 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter
U.K – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 2 Fighters, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Egypt – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter
Trans-Jordan – 2 Infantry
Belgian Congo – 1 Infantry
Union of South Africa – 2 Infantry
India – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter, 1 AA-Gun
Burma – 1 Infantry
Kwangtung – 1 Infantry
East Indies – 1 Infantry
Borneo – 1 Infantry
New Guinea – 1 Infantry
Australia – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 AA-Gun
New Zealand – 1 Infantry
Western Canada – 1 Infantry
ITALY ( $ 10 )
Sea Zone 14 – 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Italy – 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1Fighter, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Balkans – 2 Infantry, 1 Tank
Libya – 2 Infantry
JAPAN ( $ 17 )
Sea Zone 62 – 1 Battleship, 2 Transports
Sea Zone 61 – 1 Cruiser, 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport / 2 Infantry, 1 Transport / 2 Infantry
Sea Zone 36 – 1 Battle Ship, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 52 – 1 Aircraft Carrier / 2 Fighters, 1 Aircraft Carrier / 2 Fighters
Sea Zone 48 – 1 Submarine
Japan – 4 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Manchuria – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter
Kiangsu – 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery
French Indo-China Thailand – 3 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Fighter
Formosa – 1 Infantry
Okinawa – 1 Infantry
Iwo Jima – 1 Infantry
Caroline Islands – 1 Infantry
UNITED STATES ( $ 40 )
Sea Zone 10 – 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 45 – 1 Submarine
Sea Zone 50 – 1 Destroyer, 1 Transport
Sea Zone 53 – 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiser
Sea Zone 54 – 1 Aircraft Carrier / 2 Fighters, 1 Destroyer
Sea Zone 56 – 1 Battleship, 1 Transport
Eastern U.S – 2 Infantry, 1 Artillery, 1 Tank, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Philippine Islands – 2 Infantry
Wake Islands – 1 Infantry
Hawaiian Islands – 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter
Midway – 1 Infantry
Alaska – 1 Infantry
Western U.S – 2 Infantry, 1 Fighter, 1 Bomber, 1 Factory, 1 AA-Gun
Central U.S – 1 Infantry
CHINA
Place 1 Infantry unit on each Chinese territory.
China produces 2 Infantry units every round provided that China holds at least 1 Chinese territory.
The U.S player may move Chinese units during their turn and place new Chinese units on any territory China owns.
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The above list may become our “house set-up rule” between my friends and I so if anyone has time to look at it and tell us about any problems you see…… That would be really helpfull.
Thank you. -
I dunno if Germany warrants a battleship, especially in SZ 6. If they are getting one, it should be in SZ 5 I think.
Just a thought. Anyway, I’ve been working on my own house rules, something completely original and it’s got some starting unit set up alterations as well (since there are some glaring deficiencies in the original set up from my perspective including, among other things, the inability of Germany to follow up on Round 2 to support their round 1 actions.)
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@Cmdr:
I dunno if Germany warrants a battleship, especially in SZ 6. If they are getting one, it should be in SZ 5 I think.
Just a thought. Anyway, I’ve been working on my own house rules, something completely original and it’s got some starting unit set up alterations as well (since there are some glaring deficiencies in the original set up from my perspective including, among other things, the inability of Germany to follow up on Round 2 to support their round 1 actions.)
I am a big WW2 buff and it has always bothered me from A&A Classic to A&A50 that the German Battleship Bizmarck was not represented. The story about Bizmarck (the battleship in SZ6) breaking out into the Atlantic through the Noregian forge and than engaging the H.M.S Hood (the battleship in SZ2) is the greatest story of the war. The Atlantic theater should look the same after Germany’s turn anyway, it will just take bigger and longer sea battles in R1. So it is more of an historical placement than a strategical one (I’m so suprised the designers didn’t account for the Bizmarck this time around) Thank you for the imput and I do agree that 1941 and 42 both have serious problems…… With our set-up I’m worried about imbalances between nations. Do you have you’re own set-up you could share?
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I am for the German BB but only for play balance and only if the difference of compensation is also given to UK, Meaning they should get another cruiser with the BB.
Historically one BB for spring 1941 does not equate with 1 plastic unit. Germany would need about 4-5 battleships to get a “piece” , but if you consider Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Tirpitz, along with Admiral Hipper and Bismarck ( even if Bismarck was sunk in May 41…i guess it can be inferred.
But by the same token the British have like 16 battleships and should have 3-4 battleships, but only got one…so if you appeal to the history, you have to apply it across the board.
Why did you make this set up anyway? Is it for a different period your covering? or you are trying to go for Realistic?
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Classic and Revised both include the Bismark though. It’s stationed in the Central Med, but it’s represented. It’s only in Anniversary that it is removed and I think that was for game balance (easier to give the Bismark to Italy instead of having a solitary German BB in the Med.)
Just my opinion though.
If we give Germany a BB, I think it should be in SZ 5 (playability wise) and England should get +1 BB +2 CA to bring their fleet up to date power wise. (Bismark took out some UK BBs, but the Bismark was also lost, if we revive the Bismark, it’s only fair to revive the British ships too.)
For that matter, since the game starts before December 1941, we should replace the American Battleship in SZ 53 with 3 American Cruisers to represent the American Battleship fleet. (Remember, they were World War I battleships, not World War II battleships.)
It’s my opinion that the Cruiser in Anniversary represents the World War I battleship.
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@Imperious:
Why did you make this set up anyway? Is it for a different period your covering? or you are trying to go for Realistic?
We as a group are trying to go for fun (and maybe a little historical reality). We want certian aspects of the war represented in our set-up regardless of when they exactly happened like the Bizmarck and Hood battle, German U-boats praying on allied shipping lanes, Rommel in Africa, U-81 sinking the Ark Royal aircraft carrier just east of Gibralter and of course the raid on Pearl Harbour where there should be at least 1 American Battleship.
We like that the game begins with extra elements such as a German Battleship, a British aircraft carrier, a Russian and Italian bomber and American battleships. The British fleet is still vulnerable to a compleate wipe out (as ussual) however, a German Submarine might survive this round 1 battle which would be fine given their historic presence in the Atlantic. We are not 100% going for historic acuracy as much as we are trying to include all the great stories of the war into our set-up without worrying about perfection. We think the nations are ballanced give or take a cruiser here or there but we don’t want a player to feel defeated before they even get a turn playing a certain side.
I understand that 1 Battleship in history dose not nor should it represent 1 plastic piece in the game. There was alot of thought and play testing by the designers who carfully ballanced history with game play however, Our group is under the opinion that it is more fun to have a Battleship and lose it in the first battle than to never have a Battleship at all.
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@Cmdr:
If we give Germany a BB, I think it should be in SZ 5 (playability wise) and England should get +1 BB +2 CA to bring their fleet up to date power wise. (Bismark took out some UK BBs, but the Bismark was also lost, if we revive the Bismark, it’s only fair to revive the British ships too.)
Using our set-up above, do you think the British should get more starting boats?
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Classic and Revised both include the Bismark though. It’s stationed in the Central Med, but it’s represented.
well Germans didnt have any ships in the Medd. In MB AA the BB represents the Italian navy.
I too think the set up should be changed to a scenario where all players have somewhat a complete army
for the Germans this would be the BB, and perhaps another bomber
For Italy its one more DD
For Russia definatly they need the 2 fighters and 1 bomber and some tanks
for Japan i think they are ok
USA is ok except perhaps one more ship
UK needs another BB and another CA or perhaps a carrier
but everything needs to be balanced.
Id like to start some of the players with technology or have auto techs in the game, but this would have to be balanced
Id alter the VC so its possible to have independent VC conditions: so its not like japan and Germany have to maul the Soviets to get the allies to give up.
Id like the US player to have to fight in both pacific and europe close to equal efforts or Japan will win the game independently.
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@Imperious:
Classic and Revised both include the Bismark though. It’s stationed in the Central Med, but it’s represented.
I too think the set up should be changed to a scenario where all players have somewhat a complete army
for the Germans this would be the BB, and perhaps another bomber
For Italy its one more DD
For Russia definatly they need the 2 fighters and 1 bomber and some tanks
for Japan i think they are ok
USA is ok except perhaps one more ship
UK needs another BB and another CA or perhaps a carrier
but everything needs to be balanced.
Well our set-up addresses everything you listed so maybe we are on the right track after all…. as for being balanced only time will tell but I think it is important not to keep making changes. Make house rules to best improve the quality of the game and than force players to deal with the challenges those new rules bring. That being said we have made 1 change already… instead of adding a British boat we have taken away 1 German Submarine. I have already modified the list above.
As for German boats in the Med… When the British sunk the French fleet, didn’t Germany salvage anything after they occupied France?
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no they didn’t get anything out of that deal.
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Most of the cruisers were salvaged by the Italians, either to restore them as fighting ships or for scrap. The Jean de Vienne and La Galissonnière were renamed FR11 and FR12, respectively, but their repair was prevented by allied bombing and their use would have been unlikely, given the Italians’ chronic shortage of fuel.
Italy got 2 cruisers, but thats not enough for a piece. 1 Cruiser= 6-8 actual cruisers
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Imperious Leader…. could you build my alternative set-up on your board and tell me if there are any game balance problems you can see?
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Thats alot of work. Perhaps if im really bored then yes.
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Thank you very much…. We will be playing our new set-up tommorow so I will let you know how that goes as well.
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We played our alternative set-up today and it went very well.
Germany did not hit the British aircraft carrier with everything they could so after some bad dice rolls and a late retreat from the Germany, the UK was left with 2 fighters that flew to Gibralter and later sunk the Italian destroyer. A better battle from the Germans would have balanced the Atlantic but the 2 British fighters didn’t cause too much damage in the long run.
In a strange twist the German player decided to lose the battleship as a casualty in SZ2 and instead kept the 2 submarines (which stayed in the Atlantic for 3 rounds harassing the British and American efforts),
Japan was as strong as ever but the US was not far behind with the starting battleship in SZ56 and it wasn’t a problem as far as balance. The pearl harbour ships were destroyed without shooting down a single plane but the Japanese submarine was sunk.
If there was one negative, it may have been how easily the Germans invaded Russia with below average dice rolls so we are considering adding 1 Russian infantry in East Poland.
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ok ill make you guys a deal…
I will make a setup file using your ideas
You guys then work on 1943 scenario, but you have to come up with something special:
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knowing the axis will lose the question is some minor modification of the Victory conditions, also some of the technologies should be on and favor the axis but appeal to historical realism as well as balance. The purpose of 1943 was to make a shorter game played in a few hours… so keep that in mind.
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some other rules may be necessary.
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@Imperious:
ok ill make you guys a deal…
I will make a setup file using your ideas
You guys then work on 1943 scenario, but you have to come up with something special:
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knowing the axis will lose the question is some minor modification of the Victory conditions, also some of the technologies should be on and favor the axis but appeal to historical realism as well as balance. The purpose of 1943 was to make a shorter game played in a few hours… so keep that in mind.
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some other rules may be necessary.
So…. you want us to create a new set-up reflecting 1943 with a few rule changes naturally creating a shorter game?
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yes kinda.
Something where the technology is scripted for specific nations each turn and some nations start with them. NO No’s and victory conditions like Germany must survive past turn X to win, or capture X VC.
Id add some new units to give some spice:
SS Panzers 5-5 tanks limit the number to like 4 and built once per turn at cost of 8
Hidden German Army ( its a group of pieces that shows up once per game…think Battle of the Bulge) of course its movement is kept secret.
even perhaps giving the Germans longer range rockets so they can bomb America?
something that would be fun to play knowing your going down, but have the ability to drag the world down with you with your advanced weapons kinda thing.
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I will put it across the group and see what they think (I believe they would welcome the challenge) but it will take us about a week or two to do it properly.
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