Help with Allies - UK factory builds

[LMD]

Neither my friend nor I have figured out a way to win with the Allies.  We used to play an older version when we were in college 20 years ago, but this version just seems impossible for the Allies.  Every game has gone to the Axis (about 14 games now), and every one has been a KGF strategy.  We routinely go with the Norwegian Gambit (preserving the UK battleship) and have never failed.  Yes, we lose the R fighter on Germany R1, but one Russian fighter does not make the difference.  We both have been successful in sinking the German’s Med fleet early in the game and keeping Germany’s income down, but the Russians just don’t have enough to hold German territories, so Germany often builds infantry to hold land, and fighters/bombers or navy to prevent or delay UK / US landings in Europe.  The bottem line is that after many hours of the Allies buidling a navy and the Axis destroying the navy, eventually Japan just gets too powful and takes Russia.  On the few occassions when German was able to take and hold Africa for a few rounds, then it was a shorter game with Germany rolling over Russia.

So, I was wondering if anyone has ever considered taking Borneo on UK 1 and placing a factory on Borneo on UK 2, reinforced with Aussie infantry on UK 2?  UK 1 would include taking out the J transport in SZ 59 and leaving the carrier in SZ 49, thereby blocking J’s only other way of retaking Borneo on J1.  Russia could land one or two fighters on Borneo on R2 (before J2) just to hold if for one more round, then from there UK can fortify with 4 land units per turn.  Seems like this factory would stall J’s progress to Russia, allowing the US and Russia to focus on a KGF strategy.  This also seems like it could be more effective that a UK factory build in India.  While a UK factory in either India or Borneo would eventually be taken by Japan, the India factory allows J to more quickly get to Russia, whereas the Borneo factory would be most useless to Japan’s efforts to get to Russia.  Any thoughts or am I just grasping at straws at this point?

[newpaintbrush]

Perhaps you should try NOT doing the “Norwegian Gambit” (i.e. 2 fighter Russian 1 attack on Norway) and doing the Ukraine/West Russia attack instead.

Barring extremely lucky dice for the Germans and/or a prohibitively expensive German bomber(s) G1 buy, the Axis should not be able to destroy Allied navy on G2 without losing a lot of expensive German air.  When you say Germany keeps blowing up the Allied navy, there’s something wrong there.

Forget a Borneo industrial complex on Borneo.  Say UK1 you take Borneo, and block to prevent Japanese recapture.  That’s cute for a KJF plan, but only because it restricts Japan’s income for a little while, not because you can possibly hold on to Borneo.  What you see next is something like - J1 kill UK fleet elements in Pacific/Indian oceans, G2 blitz through Africa, lowering UK income, UK2 build IC, J2 retake Borneo easily with practically no UK units holding Borneo.  As to specifically what you will be racing, think on the level of 6 Japanese ground units, 4 Japanese fighters, and a Japanese bomber, possibly a Japanese battleship bombard.  It probably won’t be so much, but if Japan really wants it, you’re not gonna keep it.  This isn’t just something I’m making up either.  You can see it for yourself if you take a moment.

Don’t get trapped into trading Western Europe or Southern Europe with Germany.  You didn’t make any mention of that, but it’s a mistake a lot of new players make.  Their eyes get fixated on those shiny shiny 6 IPC territories, but it’s a trap.  Germany’s problem with attack is it takes a long time to get units from Berlin to Moscow.  If you’re dumping units to Karelia/Archangel and forcing Germany to trade at its eastern front with UK, US, and Russia, Germany just can’t maintain pressure against Moscow, and the Allies can readily reinforce Moscow.  On the other hand, if you start grabbing Paris and Rome, Germany just recaptures with cheap infantry that just got mobilized in Berlin, while maintaining its reinforcements to the east.

Another thing - you do not HAVE to maintain control of Moscow.  Most close KGF games see Moscow fall to Japan and Berlin fall to US/UK.  It’s just a question of when and how much.  If Moscow falls to Japan very early, and Japan maintains control of Moscow, Japan will race to save Berlin.  If Berlin falls to UK/US very early, and Allies maintain control of Moscow, UK/US race to save Moscow.  Usually they should fall AROUND the same time, then you try to figure out the position from there - perhaps Moscow falls two turns earlier than Berlin, or vice versa, but it usually shouldn’t be a decisive win or loss at that very moment.

[Hobbes]

@Bunnies:

Another thing - you do not HAVE to maintain control of Moscow.  Most close KGF games see Moscow fall to Japan and Berlin fall to US/UK.  It’s just a question of when and how much.  If Moscow falls to Japan very early, and Japan maintains control of Moscow, Japan will race to save Berlin.  If Berlin falls to UK/US very early, and Allies maintain control of Moscow, UK/US race to save Moscow.  Usually they should fall AROUND the same time, then you try to figure out the position from there - perhaps Moscow falls two turns earlier than Berlin, or vice versa, but it usually shouldn’t be a decisive win or loss at that very moment.

There’s also another possible strategy: UK/US link-up with the Russians through SZ4 and Karelia/Archangel, to protect Moscow with ground units. Then the Allies can use their superior coordination to their advantage against either Germany or Japan.
Naturally this requires that Africa remains in Allied possession, since the Allies need to keep an economic advantage over the Axis. But it also limits the threat of Axis airforces based on Western Europe.

LMD, you can also try using a small bid for the Allies in your games.

[Granada]

I find this really weird since I more and more tend to think Allies are the stronger side in the game.

It is good you do Norwegian gambit. But if you do NG, it puzzles me even more how you can have problems with the German air. There is no way Germany threating the Allied fleet and keeping pace with Russia on the land at the same time.

I analyzed this issue in the SZ5 Allied strategy tread you, LMD started. It is almost an impossible task to sink the allied fleet after a succesful Norwegian if the Allies dont screw things up.

You can find the post here: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=23093.0. The conclusion was that if the Germany player wants to stand an over 50 % chance to sink the combined Allied fleet R4/R5, he would need to invest around 70 IPCs R1-3 on air, in other words he would have less 20+ inf or some 14 tnks. There is no way such a German player can keep pace with Russians on land. Most likely he would have Russians trading Balkans or E. Europe, possibly both. At the same time, there is no need for the Allied player to rush things then. He can just build an extra loaded AC and then any remotest chance of Germany sinking the Allied fleet is even more out of question.

The rest is the question of the effectivity of the Allied transports. You are looking for 2 sets of 4 US transports and one set of 4 UK transports. Once that is established and save from air hits, you send 16 units to Europe. There is nothing Germans can comptete with for too long. If they turtle like mad, you can always send your Allied units to go to punish japs first which would make for much longer game, but Allied win should be guaranteed since the Axis income would drop significantly for an important period of the game.

I have a league game going against a very good oposition when i failed norwegian (which was offset by Germans failing SZ13 R1) and R7/8 I am stacking EE, WEU, Balkans. Germany in spite of a formidable stack on WR has only the slimest hope of getting Mosc this round and Berlin will most likely fall. And I think the Germany player did not spend a single IPC on ships or air.

I think there are three factors to succesful KGF:

1. Make sure Allies are in Europe ASAP. If the Germans try to slow you with air, punish them with Russians. For that you really need to buy some tanks with Russia in the early rounds. Try to have 10 tnks R3.

2. Stay focused. Dont let japan distract you by her manouvers in Pacific or Africa; if you keep pumping 16 units a round to Europe you should be grilling Hitler before the income from Africa or Pac islands for Japan makes any impact.

3. Trade smartly. Dont do strat bombing. You dont have bombers to spare if you build 16 land units a round and they can prove crucial in a possible can-opener manouver in the closing phases of the game. If you trade EE/WEU or whatever other European teritories with Allies, distribute the income in such a way that the UK has optimally 32 ipcs to spend every round, the rest should go to US to build air, or a tranny to drop to Africa from time to time or even a sub in pacific. Send always just enough: typically dont do trades with fig and inf against the lonely unit, you have 1/3 not getting the territory. If you dont need the teritory then it is better not to trade then to send just one land unit. Always have some artillery ready with Russia and if you are over 30 IPCs R3 buy the second fig. Never risk your air if not necessary, remember that figs defend better than they do attack and Allied air can buy Russia a round or two when the things start to turn ugly for her.

[Zhukov44]

The OP says the Nor gambit is working but the Luftwaffe is still cutting down his fleet.  This seems kinda counter-intuitive as the Nor gambit ought to give Allies a head start re. fleet.

Is it possible you aren’t buying navy efficiently?  Generally, I prefer ac/figs.  I think if you’re buying primarily dds or cruisers or bbs instead, then you are more likely to fall behind economically, because you pay alot for those units without getting alot of use from them–compared to German air which Germany gets to use every turn.

Also, be creative and aggressive with KGF–don’t just land units in Archangel and Morroco… that rarely works.  Your objective is to kill Germans–attack them or force them to attack you.  Always look out for the possibility of joint landings in Western Europe with UK/USA.  Even if Germany has good odds of destroying your force, as long as Allies can counter the German counter, its worthwhile to force Germany to attack your landings.  Even if your opponent is too experienced to allow a landing… the threat of a mass landing in Western compels Germany to hold back forces from the Eastern Front.

So…if you want that KGF to work…protect that fleet efficiently and make sure you have sufficient transports and gear to make landings or threaten landings.

[coorran]

@LMD:

Yes, we lose the R fighter on Germany R1, but one Russian fighter does not make the difference.

It does make the difference. A figther is a kind of super tank that can attack, but not be destroyed in the counter-attack. This makes a world of difference to the Russians. A world.

[LMD]

Not sure what Hobbes means by “trying a small bid with the Allies?”

Anyway, my German opponent typically builds mostly inf in the early rounds to hold territories, then subs and 1 or 2 carriers to threaten the US / UK fleet.  Also, he usually has a bomber or two (German and/or Japanese) on WE, forcing US to build addional navy to support the SZ 2 transports.  On other occassions, he and I (when I’m the Axis) instead just build inf with G and move all armor and many inf to Karellia, which doesn’t allow the US and UK to maintain a steady stream of Europe landings.  In those games, Russia might trade land with G early on, but G always manages to buy enough time to allow J roll over Russia. Sure the US and UK can eventually out-build whatever G does, but it always seems to take too log.  It’s possible that I haven’t been aggressive enough with Russia when G spends IPCs on navy and air, or aggressive enough with US/UK when G piles up infantry.  Seems like i’ve tried everything suggested in these forums and nothing seems to work.  I’ll keep trying and thanks for the various suggestions.

[Hobbes]

@LMD:

Not sure what Hobbes means by “trying a small bid with the Allies?”

A bid is an amount of IPCs that a player receives before game starts. It is then used to place units or it is just given to a country(s). You can check more on it under the Player Help subforum.

Usually both players bid for a side, meaning that one starts offering IPCs to play that side (‘I give 5 IPCs to play Allies’). The other player can then pass (and the first player plays the Allies with that additional money) or it can make a lower offer ('I bid 4 IPCs instead). It continues until there’s no more offers.

There are a lot of bidding systems: just 1 round (where both players announce their bids at the same time and the lower one wins automatically), the system I described above, or a set bid (players roll a die to see who plays Allies), etc. You can also have defined rules for bid placement (usually just 1 unit per territory/SZ, it needs to already have existing units and you can only place units of a country on its starting territories)

Usually bids are not used on 1942 because most players consider it balanced (unlike Classic, Revised or AA50). On this case it can be used to balance more both sides. You can try giving the Allied player a preset 3 IPC bid (bids on revised usually are 8-9 IPCs and on AA50 8-13 IPCs but I would keep it small on 1942)

[LMD]

@Granada:

If you trade EE/WEU or whatever other European teritories with Allies, distribute the income in such a way that the UK has optimally 32 ipcs to spend every round, the rest should go to US to build air, or a tranny to drop to Africa from time to time or even a sub in pacific.

Great advice from Granada.  My biggest mistake has been strat bombing because my opponent has been ridiculously lucky in shooting down allies bombers.  One follow-up question, however, is how in the world the UK maintains 32 IPCs?  By the time the UK is able to trade EE/WEU territories, it has already lost India, Persia and French Madagascar (-5 IPCs), and usually also New Zealand, Trans-Jordan and other territories in Africa
(-2+ IPCs), and has only gained Norway (+3 IPCs).  So, even with EE, UK might get up to 28-29 IPCs, but never gets close to 32 IPCs.  Of course, WHEN Japan takes the Africa in the later rounds, UK’s income is often in the low 20s.  We’ve never been able to take WEU and hold it without substantial losses, so those 6 IPCs never get factored in.  So, it seems like 32 IPCs for UK is unattainable in the mid to later rounds when UK needs them to send units to Europe.  Also, G frequently strat bombs the UK, depleting much needed IPCs.  As a result, I really never have enough to fully utilize UK’s 4 transports.

[Zhukov44]

@LMD:

It’s possible that I haven’t been aggressive enough with Russia when G spends IPCs on navy and air, or aggressive enough with US/UK when G piles up infantry.  Seems like i’ve tried everything suggested in these forums and nothing seems to work.  I’ll keep trying and thanks for the various suggestions.

Generally, if Germany is spending substantial amounts of money on navy….then a KGF ought to be able to take them if you do it aggressively and efficiently.  Without details who knows what you are doing wrong…if you want more precise advice you’ll have to tell us about your typical buys (especially in the first few rounds) and give us more detail.

I think you probably aren’t buying enough tanks with Russia…  If Germany is spending on air/navy then stack Ukraine.  If you use the Russians to wear Germany out and keep their numbers low…then later you’ll be able to land Western or stack Eastern.

UK gets to 32 ipcs from Africa, Norway, and trading East/West Europe/Belorussia.  Personally instead of the Nor gambit I go with a russian sub buy plus R2 attack on the Med fleet…like the Nor gambit this leads to larger UK income down the line.

[Granada]

@LMD:

One follow-up question, however, is how in the world the UK maintains 32 IPCs?  By the time the UK is able to trade EE/WEU territories, it has already lost India, Persia and French Madagascar (-5 IPCs), and usually also New Zealand, Trans-Jordan and other territories in Africa (-2+ IPCs), and has only gained Norway (+3 IPCs).  So, even with EE, UK might get up to 28-29 IPCs, but never gets close to 32 IPCs.  Of course, WHEN Japan takes the Africa in the later rounds, UK’s income is often in the low 20s.  We’ve never been able to take WEU and hold it without substantial losses, so those 6 IPCs never get factored in.  So, it seems like 32 IPCs for UK is unattainable in the mid to later rounds when UK needs them to send units to Europe.  Also, G frequently strat bombs the UK, depleting much needed IPCs.  As a result, I really never have enough to fully utilize UK’s 4 transports.

Well, you usually dont lose india for good till R3 most of the games, the same holds for AE, but then you already land on Africa to compensate. Most of the times I try for New Guinea R1, which gives me 1 more IPC if succesful. And then you have Norway. So you really should have no problem be above 30 R1-4 if not for the rotten dice. You build AC, 2dds R1, 3 trns and some land units R2, You might consider buying actually one more trn R3, because, you can threaten to hit WEU, Germany, EE with 10 units which will make it more difficult for gerrys to hold.

You can also overbuild the inf here so that you will need to buy less on the later rounds when the UK income will start to drop. If you have 6 starting land units with the 2 in Canada, you have build 3 more trns on UK2, you can build trn and 7 inf UK3 which would give you 2 tnk, 2 art, 13inf plus 5 trn at the end of R3 with some ipcs remaining. The combined fleet consists of bb, 2 ACs, cru, 1-2 dds, 3-4 figs, so the gerry really cannot sink that.

YOu would most likely have some units on Nor already, but still you can use the cache of extra infs to go with the new build tanks. US cannot come earlier anyway, and the synchronicity of the 16 units a round drops is what really matters.

Once you hold kar with allies, UK can trade other European teritories and you should not have problems with the income anymore even if you still dont trade WEU.

And if you are really short of income, you can always adjust the buy. Lets say 4inf, 2art, 1tnk are for 25 and still give you reasonable punch.

[LMD]

Curious, assuming G has taken AE on G1 with at least 2 units, what do you typically do with the UK fleet in SZ 35 on UK1 - do you go after Borneo on UK 1, use the SZ 35 fleet to retake AE, or maybe combine the fleet with the Aussies in SZ 38 (and further assuming in all scenarios you still send the fighter to take out the J trns in SZ59)? It seems like retaking AE is the priority, but then leaves India weak and J free to start pressing Asia right away. I’m sure there are prior posts on this so I apologize for the repetition.

Also, I’ve tried to get the point in New Guinea, but rarely succeed, which leaves Aust and NZ rather easy targets for J, and UK with even lower IPCs earlier in the game.

[Zhukov44]

I think Egy is the most important objective.  Normally those last 2 units are tanks, and they will sweep Africa, so alot of ipcs are at stake.

One alternative deployment is attacking FIC with all you have including the cruiser….this is pretty risky but its sexy when it works.

I’m not a huge fan of attacking New Guinea cause its 33% to fail outright and it weakens Aussie (sometimes the Aussie defenders can come up big, but not with only 1 inf).  On the other hand I’m not sure what to do with that transport.  I used to have it run east towards Brazil but lately opponents are sending the Jap sub after it.

[Hobbes]

@Zhukov44:

On the other hand I’m not sure what to do with that transport.   I used to have it run east towards Brazil but lately opponents are sending the Jap sub after it.

It really depends on the overall situation but one interesting move is to pull back the transport to SZ39, while moving the sub to SZ45/47. Japan then either ignores it, possibly allowing for 2 inf to be transported to Africa, depending on the location of the Japanese carrier/battleship at SZ37 on UK2 (if it is possible to hit SZ30 with fighters or the BB). Or you can pull back 1 inf from NZ to Australia, and wait with the transport on SZ40.
But if Japan decides to go after the transport on SZ39 it will have to either use the BB or keep the BB on SZ37 to protect the carrier from the UK sub.

[El Ravager]

This thread has moved away from discussing the UK1 factory, however, I’ll just add to the discussion on UK1 strategy.

I totally agree with Zhukov that Egypt is the most important target. However, depending on the remaining forces there are a lot of different options how to do it. Only if there are 4 (or more, with a bid) German units left I will not attack Egypt. If there are 3 Germans, I’d like to send everything possible, including the bomber and the cruiser support shot, sending the carrier to get the Jap transport and intending to land the planes in Ethiopia. Depending on German air presence and Russian unit allocation you may also be able to land in Trans-Jordan. Odds: about 71% to take with at least 1 inf, 19% to clear all land units and 10% to lose one or more air units. It is actually debatable whether you should press the attack with 1 fighter and 1 bomber versus 1 armor; you may lose the fighter but this will pay back by keeping Africa clear. On the other hand you may not be able to sink the German fleet next turn without the extra fig.

With 2 armor left you can consider using the bomber and/or cruiser for other purposes. 3 inf 1 fig versus 2 armor lets you take Egypt 68%, clears land units another 17% of the time and loses the fighter 15%. However these numbers also include the times when you continue with 1 fig against 1 arm and win, which you probably shouldn’t do, so you will sometimes retreat with 1 or even 2 armors left (and cry). Sending the bomber or the cruiser too makes it much better of course. By the way, I consider clearing all land units a good outcome, since it is really just about killing the German tanks. Taking Egypt is just a nice bonus that will prevent air units to land there.

With 1 armor left, you have options! Sending just the TJ inf and the fighter (possibly also the bomber) allows you to save the transport for future turns, but you need to send a ship against the Jap transport (likely the cruiser). You could also choose to send 3 inf and the cruiser against Egypt, allowing the fighter to take out the Jap tranny and to land in Buryatia (an advantage not to underestimate). I would love to send just 1 inf and bomber against Egypt, the fighter against the transport and preserve the entire Indian fleet, but this leaves no good landing spot for the bomber unless you positioned the Russians to assist in Trans Jordan.

Finally, the Aussie fleet moves depending on the Indian fleet. If the Indian fleet exposed itself to Japanese attacks, for example cruiser to SZ59 and transport to Egy SZ, you can be more liberal with the Aussia transport since it is less likely to get hit (and if it will, other battles will become less favorable for Japan). The sub can move freely but should always be positioned within 2 spaces of either Japan seazone or FIC seazone, threating the one the UK bomber can’t reach, so between the two of them you can take out any loose transports Japan leaves after J1 (or more likely, forces him to protect them).

[_Flin_]

@LMD:

Every game has gone to the Axis (about 14 games now), and every one has been a KGF strategy.

Do not play KGF.

We routinely go with the Norwegian Gambit (preserving the UK battleship) and have never failed.  Yes, we lose the R fighter on Germany R1, but one Russian fighter does not make the difference.

Do not play the Gambit. Maybe the Russian fighter combined with the lack of the BB as a target is more important than you account for.

This advice isn’t global, of course KGF and Norwegian Gambit are viable strategic and tactical options.

But if it doesn’t work for you, try something else.

• R1 Attack on WRus and UKR. Move 6 INF into Bur, 2 INF to Yakut.

• US1 build an AC, DD for Western US, placing Hawaii ftr and WUS ftr on the AC. Move Bomber to Alaska. This way you threaten SZ 60 with the fighters, SZ 61 with the bomber. If J2 doesn’t go for Bur, you can reinforce Bur with 2 fighters on US2 and maybe sink undefended transports in SZ61, landing in Bur.
  Then go for the Solomons. Try to build to 2-3 transports (moving ground troups to the Solomons. ) and a few planes every now and then for the Pacific (over time, not necessarily in one round). Have a surprise tranny take an island or 2. Threaten Borneo, Phillipines and East Indies all in one go from the Solomons.
  Use the US sub and the UK sub roam the islands, threatening transports and ACs.

The main goal is to threaten Japan and lure Japan into spending scarce money on expensive navy. If Japan ignores your moves, be more aggressive. Phillipines is a victory point, so are Shanghai and India.

I am not saying that this is a very great strategy. But it forces many decisions onto the Japanese player.

And if you have problems in the Atlantic, try building the AC, 2xDD on UK1 in SZ2, then be aware you might land the US ftr on the carrier on turn 1.