• Interesting discussion!  :-)  I think you shouldn’t go either/or as the US west OR east, axis_roll. If you buy 2 trs, 1 DD, 1 CV on the first round you can set-up that East Canada-France shuck AND get a nice 2 DD+2 loaded CVs fleet off the West coast. Japan’s fleet is spread out at-start, and with a fleet you can protect your Pacific bonus and ward off any early Alaskan adventures, and probably keep at least 4 ftrs and CA+BB on guard against you in the Pacific rather than wreaking havoc in the Indian ocean.

    As for IC placement, DarthMaximus, I agree you had a great opportunity for an Indian IC in your tourney game, and you also make all the relevant points as for why it didn’t work out. In most games Japan will shoot off the DD+trs off India and take Burma, and that Indian IC isn’t really viable under those conditions.

    However, I think you can make a case for mid-game Egyptian IC. Buy a SAF IC UK1 and start landing in ALG and prepare to shoot off the Italian fleet. In 3-5 turns EGY will be yours again, and at that stage another IC can really be nice to have in order to stop the Japs cold around PER. Yes, you can do the same by dropping a steady stream of units into ALG, but shouldn’t the drops be made into FRA instead? Nothing beats a combined US+UK shuck into FRA with 8 units each for wearing down Germany!  :evil:  If you have Scandinavia and Africa and one NO, your income should be around 40 IPCs as UK, enough to buy say 10 inf and 2 arm for your 3 ICs. And when you start trading FRA, you’ll also have money to buy more expensive units to fill those ICs.


  • I don’t know if a UK IC is the way to go for a standard strat but I have had moderate success with a T1 SAF factory, and even better success w/ a T2 Aussie factory.  I think those are really the only two viable places to put an IC.  The SAF factory seems self evident as to why that would go there so I won’t go into detail.

    The T2 Aussie factory though I usually do something along these lines.  On R1 move russian inf into china, move an 8 inf stack in bury (usually only for 1 turn), UK1: buy fleet to protect the antlantic.  Move aussie navy to NZ.  US T1 move american fleet to NZ, move planes towrd carriers or on Aus.  This can only work if the US is building at least something in the pacific occasionally.

    The point of the factory is to build inf units to ship to Afr/India/the pacific Islands.  It has to follow the American fleet.  The factory can occasionally build a sub/tranny/dest, but it’s focus is inf.  This allows the US to build only capital ships/fighters in the pacific.  It allows the UK to contest a wide area, while still focusing almost exclusivly on Germany/It, alows the us a few transport builds for Afr/Europe, and gives Japan at least something to worry about.  The good thing is if Japan takes it, the IC is of marginal use to them.

    Like I said, I am skeptical of UK IC’s but those are the only two useful builds I have been able to find.

  • 2007 AAR League

    No doubt the SAF IC is the most viable, but I’ve had some success with an Egyptian IC if Germany doesn’t attack Egypt G1.  It has the advantage of keeping UK’s NO a little longer (it requires the loss of Australia to permantely deprive UK of the NO), it deprives Italy of their NO or at least makes it dicey, and blocks Italy from gaining Africa IPC and preserving them for UK.

    Obviously Monty’s 8th Army can’t hold it alone against a determined German\Italian\Japanese assault, but that assault diverts forces from elsewhere, and the few rounds it can hold on gives the US time to mount Operation Torch.


  • @Emperor:

    No doubt the SAF IC is the most viable, but I’ve had some success with an Egyptian IC if Germany doesn’t attack Egypt G1.  It has the advantage of keeping UK’s NO a little longer (it requires the loss of Australia to permantely deprive UK of the NO), it deprives Italy of their NO or at least makes it dicey, and blocks Italy from gaining Africa IPC and preserving them for UK.

    Obviously Monty’s 8th Army can’t hold it alone against a determined German\Italian\Japanese assault, but that assault diverts forces from elsewhere, and the few rounds it can hold on gives the US time to mount Operation Torch.

    To this date, I have yet to have the opportunity to even hold egypt by UK2.  You’re right Monty can’t go alone in Africa.  THat is part of the reason why of all options that a T2 Aussie factory is so tempting.  It is combined with the American navy/ air force plus it threatens pacific Islands/India/Japanese mainland/ sort of Japan/ and even Africa.  All this at a small expense to the UK as it will be mostly be building Inf or Art I am guessing (it may be a good idea to fly the UK bomber down there for a little extra offense) as Americaq is going to be supplying the bulk of the defense.  It also puts the UK in a good NO position helping the UK/US while potentially (though not likely) hurting Japan).  All this can go on while the UK uses the vast majority of her resources on the Western axis, good stuff I think.


  • Myself always go for India IC if I have to build one with UK.

    RUSSIA

    • Russia build 6 tanks, evacuate Karelia if needed to create a deadzone on Karelia And reinforce Caucasus.
    • 2 infantry to Persia if it can afford.
    • 2 tanks prod placed in Moscow, makes 3 with starting tank to streghten deadzone.
    • 4 tanks built in Caucasus

    Japan

    UK

    • build Indian IC.

    USA

    • USA carrier based fighter land in Australia
    • Hawai fighter land in Austrlia  ( If Japan took Hawai turn 1, UK should have more room to breath )
    • West Coast Bomber land in Australia

    By round 2, 4 russian tanks and 2 infantry are in India before Japanese turn ( you might not even need all of them ). IF a full tank build for Russia is too daring for you, it is still doable with Infantry provided you move them in Persia round 1. After Japan turn, Uk reinforcement pop and USA fighters land there. USA Bomber will keep any lone japan transports honest in the sector…

    While some things can go wrong and stop you from doing all the above, most of the time you can do it. Russians tanks can always come back to Russia once the IC is secure. Often, you can also take the offensive depending if you go full KJF with the US to force japanese fleet on defending Japan island.


  • Just curious for all you SAF fans, on the rare occasion if I build the factory T1 for UK, I usually sit on the rest of my money, so on UK 2 I can put up a navy that will survive (assuming germany didn’t build a navy) anyone else do this?

    Another note on the T2 aussie factory, you at max are only going to be spending 8 ipc’s a turn (for the very if at all built destroyer) but usually only 3 - 7 IPC’s a turn (Inf, Art, and maybe the rare sub or tranny) and there are some turns in which you may be able to completley forgo a build there at all, which is a good thing.

  • 2007 AAR League

    I usually don’t buy an IC UK1 but when I do I almost never put it in India, it’s too hard to protect.  I have had success with an IC in SAF or Egypt (only if Germany didn’t attack G1).  I’ve never tried an Aussie IC, but I find it intriguing and will give it a try.


  • It can work in Revised or 1942 scenario, but not in 1941 because japs start with 5 trannies, so it’s a no brainer stealing the aussie IC, even sending some USA’s figs to defense  :|


  • @Funcioneta:

    It can work in Revised or 1942 scenario, but not in 1941 because japs start with 5 trannies, so it’s a no brainer stealing the aussie IC, even sending some USA’s figs to defense  :|

    Where are all your trannies at on T1?  Plus, If Japan wants to send a crap load of troops/material at Australia, great.  I should get a big enough look to where I can just pull the Americans out, as well as a couple British (with the Tranny).  The japanese player will have a lot of resources in an awkward area with a factory of marginal use to them.


  • @dondoolee:

    Where are all your trannies at on T1?  Plus, If Japan wants to send a crap load of troops/material at Australia, great.  I should get a big enough look to where I can just pull the Americans out, as well as a couple British (with the Tranny).  The japanese player will have a lot of resources in an awkward area with a factory of marginal use to them.

    At least 2, probably 3 (eind, bor, phi if not blocked by aussie trannie), plus tons of fighters. Any land units surviving the conquest of Australia can ferry to India or Africa, and the figs can go anywhere

    I don’t like it. If I buy a IC is for using it a lot of turns. SAF is the only safe and usable place in early stages (unless you research improved idustry, but that’s another history), one of the signals of 1941 scenario being broken  :|


  • @Funcioneta:

    @dondoolee:

    Where are all your trannies at on T1?  Plus, If Japan wants to send a crap load of troops/material at Australia, great.  I should get a big enough look to where I can just pull the Americans out, as well as a couple British (with the Tranny).  The japanese player will have a lot of resources in an awkward area with a factory of marginal use to them.

    At least 2, probably 3 (eind, bor, phi if not blocked by aussie trannie), plus tons of fighters. Any land units surviving the conquest of Australia can ferry to India or Africa, and the figs can go anywhere

    I don’t like it. If I buy a IC is for using it a lot of turns. SAF is the only safe and usable place in early stages (unless you research improved idustry, but that’s another history), one of the signals of 1941 scenario being broken  :|

    The way I am looking at this scenario:
    If you attack the Phil the UK destroyer and transport off India survive the opening round, correct me if I am wrong there
    Japan can send a max of 6 inf, 1 art, 2 fig, 1 BB bombard and 1 Cru bombard for a T2 attack on the Aussies.  I think that is the best realistic set up for Japan to Aus correct?

    If that is the case:

    1. that is why I said it may be better to try an IC as a T2 move, If Australia is that heavily gaurded with no IC is japan going to send the kitchen sink at it with only a 63%  (2 UK inf from India) chance of victory and possibly a decent America counter attack (2 inf/bomb/fig).

    Even if it is a T1 IC I don’t know if it is worth it.  Keep in mind The UK could link the remaining troops in Jordan/India together and may have the UK bomber and maybe the EGY fig if it survived, leaving Japan weak down by India.  Even if you send 6 fig (one of will probably be shot down by AA) you have a very low chance of having more than 2 units left on Australia to defend, leaving America to take it back while Japan will lack a  decent counter to this.  All the while the mainland is sorley lacking any good ground pipeline as Japan is now low on resources.  Don’t get me wrong, Japan can recover because it’s Japan but still, it is not a good start for her.

    2)The Aussie IC isn’t going stag.  It has support from other parts:

    A) Some re enforcments of US Navy/Air (however much you wish to build).  This is the backbone of the Aussie defense, it can also open up a second theater later in the game and stretch Japan out even more.
    B)A T1 7 Inf Russian Bury Stack.  They will probably retreat T2, but move them to Bury T1 to constrict Japans moves a little.
    C) 2-4 Russian Inf in China T1 with maybe somewhat of a 1 inf per turn Russian pipeline comming in.  This can make China turn into a hemmorage if Japan goes weak on it
    D) The linking up of Jordan troops with Indian Troops UK1 probably with the UK bomber and depending how lucky you are the EGY fig and armour.  This means if Japan wants to hold India T3 he has to really commit.

    What the Allies do to Japan is relativly inexpesive and somewhat flexible.  The plan can still support a KGF strat while giving Japan a pretty darn good speed bump for a cheap cost.


  • Youre pretext is completely wrong, the z35 tran + dd almost never survives 2fgt z61 kills them.

    For Jap T2 you will allways have 2inf Sum and 2inf Brn to hit it + whatever survived on Phi (3inf 1arm attacking) usually at least 1inf 1arm, often more, + 1cru 1 bb shot, 2fgt(if both survived vs z35). And in my openings i also hit Burma with 1inf 1art, so whatever survived there gets to hit.

    Realistic you have a punch on Aus turn 2: 5inf 1art 1arm (assuming 1inf died in Bur, 2inf Phi) 2fgt z35 and cru, BB shot. Nothing in the world that UK and US can do turn 1 will be alive on Aus after Jap turn 2. I use this turn one setup to make sure both a India and a Aus IC is totally out of the question. (not assuming sick sick dices, 2fgts z35 dies to the dd etc, if that happens ofc there might be room for a IC somewhere other then SAF).


  • @Pin:

    Youre pretext is completely wrong, the z35 tran + dd almost never survives 2fgt z61 kills them.

    For Jap T2 you will allways have 2inf Sum and 2inf Brn to hit it + whatever survived on Phi (3inf 1arm attacking) usually at least 1inf 1arm, often more, + 1cru 1 bb shot, 2fgt(if both survived vs z35). And in my openings i also hit Burma with 1inf 1art, so whatever survived there gets to hit.

    Realistic you have a punch on Aus turn 2: 5inf 1art 1arm (assuming 1inf died in Bur, 2inf Phi) 2fgt z35 and cru, BB shot. Nothing in the world that UK and US can do turn 1 will be alive on Aus after Jap turn 2. I use this turn one setup to make sure both a India and a Aus IC is totally out of the question. (not assuming sick sick dices, 2fgts z35 dies to the dd etc, if that happens ofc there might be room for a IC somewhere other then SAF).

    Wait, what are these opening moves on the Phil.  I usually consider a T1 Jap attack on the Phil a mistake, so I am not that familiar with the attack.  How open are you kepping the mainland?  If this is the case, how long is India kept alive? What Chinese pieces are left alive?

  • 2007 AAR League

    @dondoolee:

    @Pin:

    Youre pretext is completely wrong, the z35 tran + dd almost never survives 2fgt z61 kills them.

    For Jap T2 you will allways have 2inf Sum and 2inf Brn to hit it + whatever survived on Phi (3inf 1arm attacking) usually at least 1inf 1arm, often more, + 1cru 1 bb shot, 2fgt(if both survived vs z35). And in my openings i also hit Burma with 1inf 1art, so whatever survived there gets to hit.

    Realistic you have a punch on Aus turn 2: 5inf 1art 1arm (assuming 1inf died in Bur, 2inf Phi) 2fgt z35 and cru, BB shot. Nothing in the world that UK and US can do turn 1 will be alive on Aus after Jap turn 2. I use this turn one setup to make sure both a India and a Aus IC is totally out of the question. (not assuming sick sick dices, 2fgts z35 dies to the dd etc, if that happens ofc there might be room for a IC somewhere other then SAF).

    Wait, what are these opening moves on the Phil.  I usually consider a T1 Jap attack on the Phil a mistake, so I am not that familiar with the attack.  How open are you kepping the mainland?  If this is the case, how long is India kept alive? What Chinese pieces are left alive?

    Check any of the games where I’m the axis, my Japanese opening move is pretty standard, and I rarely deviate from it.  Attached is a map showing typical disposition of forces after J1 (actually slightly better than average as the attack on the Philippines had no losses).

    Em-U505vChamps-AA50-41-01Cj.AAM


  • In this scenario, UK could safely put in an Australia IC rd1
    Japan has 4 inf and 2 ftr to go against 3 inf,art, 2 ftr, bmr, aaa.
    (UK DD stoops philipine units J2)

    The complex might even survive more than 1 build:
    USA can build to add 2 more ftrs + 2 ground units.

    However Japan can bring alot more if they want.

    ……and there’s the problem

    Japan has so much range with their power, it is very hard to get more than a foot hold anywhere, because then Japan just focuses on the gnat the allies has flown at Godzilla and smacks it.

    That then becomes one expensive 1-2 turn delaying gnat.  PROBABLY not worth it to the allies.

  • 2007 AAR League

    @axis_roll:

    In this scenario, UK could safely put in an Australia IC rd1
    Japan has 4 inf and 2 ftr to go against 3 inf,art, 2 ftr, bmr, aaa.
    (UK DD stoops philipine units J2)

    The complex might even survive more than 1 build:
    USA can build to add 2 more ftrs + 2 ground units.

    However Japan can bring alot more if they want.

    ……and there’s the problem

    Japan has so much range with their power, it is very hard to get more than a foot hold anywhere, because then Japan just focuses on the gnat the allies has flown at Godzilla and smacks it.

    That then becomes one expensive 1-2 turn delaying gnat.  PROBABLY not worth it to the allies.

    I tend to agree, which is why I’ve never placed one there, as Japan, I wouldn’t allow it survive for long, but I probably wouldn’t take it out J2.


  • Mollari: For some reason I can’t see the file. How much would Japan have to send at it? But If you had an 8 inf stack on bury/ an army from India/Jordan/ whatever is left in Egy and some Russians in China/ and maybe some US ships/planes comming from the pacific How pressed would Japan be?

  • 2007 AAR League

    @dondoolee:

    Mollari: For some reason I can’t see the file. How much would Japan have to send at it? But If you had an 8 inf stack on bury/ an army from India/Jordan/ whatever is left in Egy and some Russians in China/ and maybe some US ships/planes comming from the pacific How pressed would Japan be?

    I would ignore an 8 stack in Bury, a 7 stack in Manchuria I would take out.  If UK blocked forces from Philippines with a dd in sz48 I would Ignore Australia and go after India, forces from TJ can’t get to India before UK2.  There would be nothing left in Egypt, Germany and Italy would have taken those out T1.  Russian forces in China, no biggie, it’s no advantage to Russia and they are forces not on the front with Germany.

    Here’s the Text print out:

    ***** Country: 1 *****

    *** Baltic Seazone (BAL/Z5)
    1 Trn

    *** North Sea (NOR/Z6)
    1 Cru
    1 Sub

    *** Black Sea Seazone (BLA/Z16)
    1 Trn

    *** Finland (Fin)
    4 Inf
    1 Ftr

    *** Germany (Ger)
    1 IC
    7 Inf
    1 AA
    1 Ftr

    *** France (Fra)
    5 Inf
    2 Ftr
    1 Arm

    *** Bulgaria/Romania (Bul)
    1 Ftr

    *** East Poland (Epl)
    2 Inf
    1 Arm
    1 Flag
    1 Art

    *** Baltic States (Bst)
    1 Flag
    3 Inf
    4 Arm
    1 Art

    *** Ukraine (Ukr)
    1 Art
    1 Flag

    *** Egypt (Egy)
    1 Flag
    2 Arm
    1 Art

    *** Libya (Lib)
    1 Bmr

    *** Ger - Fra+Den+Pol+Cze+Bul+Ger
    1 Flag

    *** Ger - 3 of Epl,Ukr,Bst,Euk,Bel,Ukr
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    47 Flag

    *** Victory Cities
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    1 Flag

    ***** Country: 2 *****

    *** Karelia S.S.R. (Kar)
    1 AA
    1 Art
    11 Inf
    1 IC
    1 Arm

    *** Belorussia (Bel)
    1 Inf

    *** Eastern Ukraine (Euk)
    1 Inf

    *** Caucasus (Cau)
    1 AA
    4 Inf
    1 IC

    *** Russia (Mos)
    3 Arm
    1 AA
    1 IC
    4 Inf

    *** Archangelsk (Arc)
    1 Art
    3 Inf

    *** Urals (Ura)
    1 Inf

    *** Evenki National Okrug (Eve)
    1 Inf

    *** Yakut S.S.R. (Yak)
    4 Inf

    *** Stanovoj Chrebet (Stc)
    3 Inf

    *** USSR - Arc + no Allied on Red Areas
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    31 Flag

    *** Victory Cities
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    1 Flag

    ***** Country: 3 *****

    *** Burma Seazone (BSZ/Z37)
    2 Ftr
    1 AC

    *** Java Sea (JAV/Z38)
    1 Trn

    *** Borneo Seazone (BOR/Z49)
    1 Trn

    *** Philippines Islands Seazone (SUL/Z50)
    2 Trn
    1 BB

    *** East Chinese Sea (ECH/Z61)
    1 Trn
    1 Cru

    *** Sea of Japan (SJA/Z62)
    2 AC
    2 Trn
    4 Ftr

    *** Japan (Jpn)
    1 IC
    4 Inf
    1 AA
    1 Art

    *** Iwo Jima (Iwo)
    1 Inf

    *** French Indochina (Fic)
    2 Ftr

    *** Kwangtung (Kwa)
    1 Art
    1 Flag

    *** East Indies (Sum)
    2 Inf
    1 Flag

    *** Borneo (Brn)
    2 Inf
    1 Flag

    *** Philippine Islands (Phi)
    3 Inf
    1 Arm
    1 Flag

    *** Fukien (Fuk)
    2 Inf
    1 Flag

    *** Kiangsu (Kia)
    1 Inf
    1 Flag

    *** Manchuria (Man)
    1 Flag

    *** Suiyuan (Sui)
    2 Inf
    1 Flag

    *** Yunnan (Yun)
    2 Inf
    1 Flag

    *** Jap - Fic+Man+Kia
    1 Flag

    *** Jap - 4 of Kwa,Sum,Bor,Phi,Ngu,Sol
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    41 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    1 Flag

    ***** Country: 4 *****

    *** Greenland Seazone (GRN/Z2)
    1 Trn
    1 BB

    *** East Canada Seazone (ECS/Z9)
    1 Trn
    1 Des

    *** South East Australian SZ (SEA/Z41)
    1 Trn
    1 Des

    *** Eastern Canada (Eca)
    1 Arm

    *** United Kingdom (Gbr)
    2 Inf
    1 Bmr
    1 Art
    2 Ftr
    1 IC
    1 AA
    1 Arm

    *** Union of South Africa (Saf)
    2 Inf

    *** Trans-Jordan (Trj)
    2 Inf

    *** India (Ind)
    1 AA
    3 Inf
    1 Art

    *** Burma (Bur)
    1 Inf

    *** Australia (Aus)
    3 Inf
    1 AA
    1 Art

    *** Western Canada (Wca)
    1 Inf

    *** Nation Overview
    43 Flag

    ***** Country: 5 *****

    *** Central Mediterranean SZ (CMD/Z14)
    2 Cru
    1 Trn
    1 BB

    *** Italy (Ita)
    1 Ftr
    1 Arm
    1 Art
    1 AA
    1 IC
    1 Inf

    *** Balkans (Blk)
    1 Arm
    2 Inf

    *** Libya (Lib)
    2 Inf

    *** Ita - Ita+Blk+Alg+Lib+WMD+CMD+EMD
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    10 Flag

    ***** Country: 6 *****

    *** Eastern US Ocean (EOC/Z10)
    1 Des
    1 Trn

    *** Easter Islands Seazone (EIS/Z44)
    1 Ftr
    1 Des
    1 AC

    *** Eastern United States (Eus)
    1 Inf
    1 Bmr
    1 Art
    1 IC
    1 Ftr
    1 AA

    *** Central United States (Cus)
    1 Inf

    *** Western United States (Wus)
    1 Ftr
    1 IC
    1 AA
    1 Inf
    1 Bmr

    *** Alaska (Ala)
    1 Inf

    *** Hawaiian Islands (Haw)
    1 Ftr
    1 Inf

    *** Midway Island (Mid)
    1 Inf

    *** Wake Island (Wak)
    1 Inf

    *** USA - 3 of Haw,Mid,Wak,Sol
    1 Flag

    *** USA - Wus+Cus+Eus
    1 Flag

    *** Nation Overview
    40 Flag

    ***** Country: 7 *****

    *** Hupeh (Hup)
    1 Inf


  • Thanks a lot, I’ll take a look at it


  • 1)Why isn’t the US des/car/fig in SZ 44 listed?  Is that the only miss?
    2)How did you clear Egy w/ Germany while sening the Tran to the black sea, and from the looks of it w/o the bomber?

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