UK ICs

[Crossover]

@Gallo:

I’m on the opinion that an UK IC in India is nothing but a nice present for Hirohito… but if you want to walk that walk…

a) Since Japan moves first then UK (in 1941), watch out what Japan does on its first turn… they may not commit everything against India on their first move.

If an Indian factory seems soundable…

you should have moved two USSR infantry to Persia on Turn1
then send as many UK fighters to India via London-Moscow (turn1), Moscow-India (turn2)

Be aggressive against Japan everywhere else…

one big step-back about the India IC is that it requires a big commitment from the UK… trying on holding India you may lost Africa to the Italians and you may not be able to mount a soundable attack against Germany (specially if Germany obliterates the Royal Navy during its first turn)

1. moving UK fighters + bomber to a Russian territory = no 5 IPC NO for Russia if you use NOs !

2. your tank + fighter survived ? What the heck did the Germans roll?
   Statistically a German attack with tank from France + Inf from Morocco, all units from Lybia + Bomber from Germany will end with either German tank + bomber or only German bomber, UK units will normally die.

3. Why did Japan moved all against India and forego other targets? I don’t see.
   Japan can easily take Philippines (3Inf + art [from Japan] + 2 fighters). East Indies + Borneo will be taken both with 2 Inf. Use 2 Inf + 2 fighters for Kwangtung attack, ignore Russia, but use your transport and Cruiser from SZ 61 and attack Burma.
   Attack UKs Indian fleet with 2 fighters and land them on AC that moved SZ61 to SZ 37.

Japan is ready to take India in R2 with 1-2 Inf + art from Burma, 2 Inf from Borneo and 2 Inf from East Indies, a cruiser and 4-5 fighters (one may be lost when attacking UKs DD + transport), 2 fighters from AC in SZ 37 + 2-3 fighters from FIC.

Yes, UKs AA gun may shoot down another fighter, but the attack is overwhelming.

If UK pulls out everything - are they strong enough to attack 7 ground units ??
Even if - Japan will capture India slightly und bring new units from Japan to FIC (17 IPC = 1 Transport + 2 tanks) or build 2 tanks in FIC if an IC was build there on round 1 (an interesting opening move !)

So, how to protect that round 1 IC in India?

[bugoo]

The other nice possibility for the IC is SAF is i’ve noticed alot of players leave the UK SZ12 fleet live.  That fleet can head down to the SAF IC to link up with more boats built on turn 2, which is about the only way and probably best way to get boats into the pacific for the UK (the aussie boats can even get there too, just leave US planes in range to sink the jap carrier if it decides to hit it).

This could give you a navy on turn 2 there of 2 destroyers, 1 cruisier, 1 AC (your planes flown down turn 1 or US planes from Australia), 1 trans, +1 more boat.  More than Japan’s typical AC and/or cruiser floating in that area.

Now it wouldn’t be until turn 4 that they could take anything, but can anyone think of ideas to go along with this?

[TitusAndronicus]

UK really needs an Asian or Africa IC if it wants to be successful.  If by turn 3 or 4 all of its colonies and IPCs are gone there’s no way in can viable for the rest of the game and that basically forces the USA to play helper for Russia and take on Japan.  UK without colonies = Italy, and the Allies can’t survive long in '41 with that.

I’m a huge fan of the E. Indies IC, it takes a little luck and planning to make it happen but it puts the UK in a perfect position to retake Australia, Borneo, India and eventually the Phillipines over time.  4 UK units pumping out of the farthest east island territory plus the USA on the other side makes Japan’s life incredibly difficult.  The opportunity for an E. Indies IC doesn’t present itself too often, but if you’re guaranteed to hold it until your next turn that could be a game ender for Japan.

[axis_roll]

I am torn at this point in a game with deciding if I should invest $15 against the Japanese to hold either India for a few turns or Australia for much longer.

I could spend the $15 on a much stronger UK Atlantic navy.  However the UK2 income will be very good this turn (even with a safer/weaker UK atlantic move and the UK IC buy in India/Australia)

This is a 15 VC game, so getting an IC in Australia and making the continent secure holds one key VC.  Australia is usually one of those Vc’s that once lost, is lost forever.  I think I can keep that from happening, but at what cost?

Is it worth it against a Germany that is fattening up (more inf buys than tanks)?  Africa is still mostly in allied hands (Germany did poorly in Egypt G1).

It is only through some lucky rolls (and positioning to be able to take advantage of these rolls), that I am in this position.  In other words, this decision normally would not be in play.

Maybe I should count the VCs and see if the investment in Australia will make the difference….

[axis_roll]

@DarthMaximus:

I would like to amend my thoughts on an India IC.  Before I said:

@DarthMaximus:

I think Ind/Aus would be nice but I think most Japan players will be in position to take them on J2.  IMO they are just too conditional to build a solid strategy around.

And now I feel, even if you know you can hold it beyond J2-3, it is still not worth it.  The only way it might be viable would be if you know J won’t have a shot until after J3 and you go all out with the US in the Pac.  But this opens up a can of worms in the Atlantic.

In my tourney game, I had a very favorable setup for a UK IC on Ind so I decided to try it and was able to pull Egy survivors as well as 2 troops from Aus to Ind (for a UK 2 landing).  I even got my ftrs/bom there and continued to buy inf + ftrs for att/def and I still needed Russian help.  I was also able to do a significant attack on Japan killing a bunch of rt/arm in Bur setting J back another turn BUT even that wasn’t enough.  Japan still cleared Ind later and can pretty much walk in next turn, which I think will be rd 7.  Granted China is starting to come back a bit and Jap has been severly slowed but the Ind IC isn’t holdable and the Allies are taking a beating in the Atlantic since the UK had to spend so many resources on defending the IC in the earlier rounds.

It’s an interesting game and Russia is going to end up being pretty strong, but I pretty much did all I could to hold the IC and it still falls to a determined J player.

As I said, a possible alternative would have been to go all out Pac with the US but seeing as how Ger/Ita have kept the US (with minor UK forces) in the Atlantic at bay, with no US presence in the Atlantic I think London would be in serious jeopardy, making a Kill UK First strat very possible.

Darth,

Your experience was from about a month ago.  Did you end up winning that game with the allies?

I think that because defense is cheaper/easier than offense, with good positioning, the allies can hold on much longer than one might think.  Especially in a longer game (RE:15 VCs).

Along these lines of thinking, the $15 spent on the India IC in your game might have been a good investment as it slowed Japan down considerably.  Let’s just pick a number and say Japan was delayed 3 rounds from putting pressure on Russia, at $15, that’s only $5 IPCs a turn.  I think that’s a pretty good investment.
Once the building does fall, unless Japan has a gun in range, the allies can turn around and make the building a little more costly to Japan when they do take it over by bombing it to -$6.  Now the building is only $9 gain for Japan.

Again, still debating the cost and usefulness of a UK IC on UK2 versus a bigger navy investment.

[DarthMaximus]

I ended up losing the game.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13595.0

As I recall the German air gave me fits in the Atlantic with fleet movements and eventually once India did fall, it all came crashing down.  I’d have to look over my game again, but I think I held India until rd 8 or 9.

Now, I bought ftrs/inf for Ind thinking the att/def would be beneficial since you can only place 3 units, but it turned out that I ended up having to tie up most of my UK airforce in and around India making it hard to attack Ger or defend the Atlantic, it just isn’t easy to get ftrs from India to Sz 12 or Sz 6.

I suppose if you go all inf for Ind and count on heavier Russian support it might hold out.  I tried to limit my Russian support.  I had a couple inf and tanks but tried to keep it mostly UK/US.

I also didn’t do much with the US in the Pac, which may have been a mistake with a UK IC in India.  I think Japan had a pretty good setup in Rd 1 to threaten Sz 56 (I think he took HI in rd 1 as well), and with the lack of UK ships in the Atlantic I pulled the US AC.

I’m still thinking that tying up 3 units in production for the UK for Ind (or another IC) might be too much.  Assuming you earn 25-30, that leaves you with only 16-21 for Ger.  Throw in a couple J SBRs and you might have to pay 6 just to place 3 in India.  But as I said it would probably be better if you commit heavy with the US to the Pac as well and any or all Atlantic dropoffs should just go to Alg where it is easier for both the UK/US to protect.  My mistake might have been not committing to a cripple Japan strat.  Do the bare minimum against Germany and get the US to Sol while UK still holds India.

[axis_roll]

@DarthMaximus:

I’m still thinking that tying up 3 units in production for the UK for Ind (or another IC) might be too much.  Assuming you earn 25-30, that leaves you with only 16-21 for Ger.  Throw in a couple J SBRs and you might have to pay 6 just to place 3 in India.  But as I said it would probably be better if you commit heavy with the US to the Pac as well and any or all Atlantic dropoffs should just go to Alg where it is easier for both the UK/US to protect.  My mistake might have been not committing to a cripple Japan strat.  Do the bare minimum against Germany and get the US to Sol while UK still holds India.

Thanks for your reply.  You raise some good points about opportunity cost in the Atlantic and about the range of units.  I have found that to be one of the bigger challenges for the allies as units in one theatre are pretty much committed to that theatre do to the extra spaces added to the AA50 map.

I have made a US1 buy all against japan, even moved the US tpt and DD from the east coast towards japan.  So I am at the cross roads of continuing down the asia resistance path with UK’s help or the strong Atlantic fleet to threaten Europe.  It is hard to argue about the importance of a strong threat on Germanys back door.  As the allies, you should more often than not, error on the side of caution.

At least that USED to be the mind set in the past since the longer the game, the better the chance for the allies.  There’s different Economies involved with National Objectives, so I have seen cases where even in the 8th round of a game, the axis have the economic advantage.

I am reminded of the U505 post about getting out of the old ‘A&A’ strategies and re-thinking the game anew.  If there EVER was a chance for a second round UK IC to be put down in a game, this game would be it.

I need to look closer at the game and what can happen in the next few round(s) for Japan.

[DarthMaximus]

One last thing, if you go all out for Japan/Asia you can usually afford to lose Moscow (at least you could in Revised).  Obviously it is better if you don’t, but if the UK/US control SE Asia and the US has forced the J fleet back to Japan then it is usually only a matter of time for Japan.  So a late round loss of Mos where Germany is forced to kill off most of its units in taking Mos or Cauc can help.  As long as you keep London safe it is a good trade to make, assuming Japan is crippled to the point that thier fleet can’t leave the home island seazone or you sunk their fleet.

[Lynxes]

Interesting discussion!  :-)  I think you shouldn’t go either/or as the US west OR east, axis_roll. If you buy 2 trs, 1 DD, 1 CV on the first round you can set-up that East Canada-France shuck AND get a nice 2 DD+2 loaded CVs fleet off the West coast. Japan’s fleet is spread out at-start, and with a fleet you can protect your Pacific bonus and ward off any early Alaskan adventures, and probably keep at least 4 ftrs and CA+BB on guard against you in the Pacific rather than wreaking havoc in the Indian ocean.

As for IC placement, DarthMaximus, I agree you had a great opportunity for an Indian IC in your tourney game, and you also make all the relevant points as for why it didn’t work out. In most games Japan will shoot off the DD+trs off India and take Burma, and that Indian IC isn’t really viable under those conditions.

However, I think you can make a case for mid-game Egyptian IC. Buy a SAF IC UK1 and start landing in ALG and prepare to shoot off the Italian fleet. In 3-5 turns EGY will be yours again, and at that stage another IC can really be nice to have in order to stop the Japs cold around PER. Yes, you can do the same by dropping a steady stream of units into ALG, but shouldn’t the drops be made into FRA instead? Nothing beats a combined US+UK shuck into FRA with 8 units each for wearing down Germany!  :evil:  If you have Scandinavia and Africa and one NO, your income should be around 40 IPCs as UK, enough to buy say 10 inf and 2 arm for your 3 ICs. And when you start trading FRA, you’ll also have money to buy more expensive units to fill those ICs.

[dondoolee]

I don’t know if a UK IC is the way to go for a standard strat but I have had moderate success with a T1 SAF factory, and even better success w/ a T2 Aussie factory.  I think those are really the only two viable places to put an IC.  The SAF factory seems self evident as to why that would go there so I won’t go into detail.

The T2 Aussie factory though I usually do something along these lines.  On R1 move russian inf into china, move an 8 inf stack in bury (usually only for 1 turn), UK1: buy fleet to protect the antlantic.  Move aussie navy to NZ.  US T1 move american fleet to NZ, move planes towrd carriers or on Aus.  This can only work if the US is building at least something in the pacific occasionally.

The point of the factory is to build inf units to ship to Afr/India/the pacific Islands.  It has to follow the American fleet.  The factory can occasionally build a sub/tranny/dest, but it’s focus is inf.  This allows the US to build only capital ships/fighters in the pacific.  It allows the UK to contest a wide area, while still focusing almost exclusivly on Germany/It, alows the us a few transport builds for Afr/Europe, and gives Japan at least something to worry about.  The good thing is if Japan takes it, the IC is of marginal use to them.

Like I said, I am skeptical of UK IC’s but those are the only two useful builds I have been able to find.

[jsp4563]

No doubt the SAF IC is the most viable, but I’ve had some success with an Egyptian IC if Germany doesn’t attack Egypt G1.  It has the advantage of keeping UK’s NO a little longer (it requires the loss of Australia to permantely deprive UK of the NO), it deprives Italy of their NO or at least makes it dicey, and blocks Italy from gaining Africa IPC and preserving them for UK.

Obviously Monty’s 8th Army can’t hold it alone against a determined German\Italian\Japanese assault, but that assault diverts forces from elsewhere, and the few rounds it can hold on gives the US time to mount Operation Torch.

[dondoolee]

@Emperor:

No doubt the SAF IC is the most viable, but I’ve had some success with an Egyptian IC if Germany doesn’t attack Egypt G1.  It has the advantage of keeping UK’s NO a little longer (it requires the loss of Australia to permantely deprive UK of the NO), it deprives Italy of their NO or at least makes it dicey, and blocks Italy from gaining Africa IPC and preserving them for UK.

Obviously Monty’s 8th Army can’t hold it alone against a determined German\Italian\Japanese assault, but that assault diverts forces from elsewhere, and the few rounds it can hold on gives the US time to mount Operation Torch.

To this date, I have yet to have the opportunity to even hold egypt by UK2.  You’re right Monty can’t go alone in Africa.  THat is part of the reason why of all options that a T2 Aussie factory is so tempting.  It is combined with the American navy/ air force plus it threatens pacific Islands/India/Japanese mainland/ sort of Japan/ and even Africa.  All this at a small expense to the UK as it will be mostly be building Inf or Art I am guessing (it may be a good idea to fly the UK bomber down there for a little extra offense) as Americaq is going to be supplying the bulk of the defense.  It also puts the UK in a good NO position helping the UK/US while potentially (though not likely) hurting Japan).  All this can go on while the UK uses the vast majority of her resources on the Western axis, good stuff I think.

[Corbeau Blanc]

Myself always go for India IC if I have to build one with UK.

RUSSIA

• Russia build 6 tanks, evacuate Karelia if needed to create a deadzone on Karelia And reinforce Caucasus.
• 2 infantry to Persia if it can afford.
• 2 tanks prod placed in Moscow, makes 3 with starting tank to streghten deadzone.
• 4 tanks built in Caucasus

Japan

UK

• build Indian IC.

USA

• USA carrier based fighter land in Australia
• Hawai fighter land in Austrlia  ( If Japan took Hawai turn 1, UK should have more room to breath )
• West Coast Bomber land in Australia

By round 2, 4 russian tanks and 2 infantry are in India before Japanese turn ( you might not even need all of them ). IF a full tank build for Russia is too daring for you, it is still doable with Infantry provided you move them in Persia round 1. After Japan turn, Uk reinforcement pop and USA fighters land there. USA Bomber will keep any lone japan transports honest in the sector…

While some things can go wrong and stop you from doing all the above, most of the time you can do it. Russians tanks can always come back to Russia once the IC is secure. Often, you can also take the offensive depending if you go full KJF with the US to force japanese fleet on defending Japan island.

[dondoolee]

Just curious for all you SAF fans, on the rare occasion if I build the factory T1 for UK, I usually sit on the rest of my money, so on UK 2 I can put up a navy that will survive (assuming germany didn’t build a navy) anyone else do this?

Another note on the T2 aussie factory, you at max are only going to be spending 8 ipc’s a turn (for the very if at all built destroyer) but usually only 3 - 7 IPC’s a turn (Inf, Art, and maybe the rare sub or tranny) and there are some turns in which you may be able to completley forgo a build there at all, which is a good thing.

[jsp4563]

I usually don’t buy an IC UK1 but when I do I almost never put it in India, it’s too hard to protect.  I have had success with an IC in SAF or Egypt (only if Germany didn’t attack G1).  I’ve never tried an Aussie IC, but I find it intriguing and will give it a try.

[Funcioneta]

It can work in Revised or 1942 scenario, but not in 1941 because japs start with 5 trannies, so it’s a no brainer stealing the aussie IC, even sending some USA’s figs to defense  :|

[dondoolee]

@Funcioneta:

It can work in Revised or 1942 scenario, but not in 1941 because japs start with 5 trannies, so it’s a no brainer stealing the aussie IC, even sending some USA’s figs to defense  :|

Where are all your trannies at on T1?  Plus, If Japan wants to send a crap load of troops/material at Australia, great.  I should get a big enough look to where I can just pull the Americans out, as well as a couple British (with the Tranny).  The japanese player will have a lot of resources in an awkward area with a factory of marginal use to them.

[Funcioneta]

@dondoolee:

Where are all your trannies at on T1?  Plus, If Japan wants to send a crap load of troops/material at Australia, great.  I should get a big enough look to where I can just pull the Americans out, as well as a couple British (with the Tranny).  The japanese player will have a lot of resources in an awkward area with a factory of marginal use to them.

At least 2, probably 3 (eind, bor, phi if not blocked by aussie trannie), plus tons of fighters. Any land units surviving the conquest of Australia can ferry to India or Africa, and the figs can go anywhere

I don’t like it. If I buy a IC is for using it a lot of turns. SAF is the only safe and usable place in early stages (unless you research improved idustry, but that’s another history), one of the signals of 1941 scenario being broken  :|

[dondoolee]

@Funcioneta:

@dondoolee:

Where are all your trannies at on T1?  Plus, If Japan wants to send a crap load of troops/material at Australia, great.  I should get a big enough look to where I can just pull the Americans out, as well as a couple British (with the Tranny).  The japanese player will have a lot of resources in an awkward area with a factory of marginal use to them.

At least 2, probably 3 (eind, bor, phi if not blocked by aussie trannie), plus tons of fighters. Any land units surviving the conquest of Australia can ferry to India or Africa, and the figs can go anywhere

I don’t like it. If I buy a IC is for using it a lot of turns. SAF is the only safe and usable place in early stages (unless you research improved idustry, but that’s another history), one of the signals of 1941 scenario being broken  :|

The way I am looking at this scenario:
If you attack the Phil the UK destroyer and transport off India survive the opening round, correct me if I am wrong there
Japan can send a max of 6 inf, 1 art, 2 fig, 1 BB bombard and 1 Cru bombard for a T2 attack on the Aussies.  I think that is the best realistic set up for Japan to Aus correct?

If that is the case:

1. that is why I said it may be better to try an IC as a T2 move, If Australia is that heavily gaurded with no IC is japan going to send the kitchen sink at it with only a 63%  (2 UK inf from India) chance of victory and possibly a decent America counter attack (2 inf/bomb/fig).

Even if it is a T1 IC I don’t know if it is worth it.  Keep in mind The UK could link the remaining troops in Jordan/India together and may have the UK bomber and maybe the EGY fig if it survived, leaving Japan weak down by India.  Even if you send 6 fig (one of will probably be shot down by AA) you have a very low chance of having more than 2 units left on Australia to defend, leaving America to take it back while Japan will lack a  decent counter to this.  All the while the mainland is sorley lacking any good ground pipeline as Japan is now low on resources.  Don’t get me wrong, Japan can recover because it’s Japan but still, it is not a good start for her.

2)The Aussie IC isn’t going stag.  It has support from other parts:

A) Some re enforcments of US Navy/Air (however much you wish to build).  This is the backbone of the Aussie defense, it can also open up a second theater later in the game and stretch Japan out even more.
B)A T1 7 Inf Russian Bury Stack.  They will probably retreat T2, but move them to Bury T1 to constrict Japans moves a little.
C) 2-4 Russian Inf in China T1 with maybe somewhat of a 1 inf per turn Russian pipeline comming in.  This can make China turn into a hemmorage if Japan goes weak on it
D) The linking up of Jordan troops with Indian Troops UK1 probably with the UK bomber and depending how lucky you are the EGY fig and armour.  This means if Japan wants to hold India T3 he has to really commit.

What the Allies do to Japan is relativly inexpesive and somewhat flexible.  The plan can still support a KGF strat while giving Japan a pretty darn good speed bump for a cheap cost.

[Pin]

Youre pretext is completely wrong, the z35 tran + dd almost never survives 2fgt z61 kills them.

For Jap T2 you will allways have 2inf Sum and 2inf Brn to hit it + whatever survived on Phi (3inf 1arm attacking) usually at least 1inf 1arm, often more, + 1cru 1 bb shot, 2fgt(if both survived vs z35). And in my openings i also hit Burma with 1inf 1art, so whatever survived there gets to hit.

Realistic you have a punch on Aus turn 2: 5inf 1art 1arm (assuming 1inf died in Bur, 2inf Phi) 2fgt z35 and cru, BB shot. Nothing in the world that UK and US can do turn 1 will be alive on Aus after Jap turn 2. I use this turn one setup to make sure both a India and a Aus IC is totally out of the question. (not assuming sick sick dices, 2fgts z35 dies to the dd etc, if that happens ofc there might be room for a IC somewhere other then SAF).