So for at least revised rules, should the attacker get all submerge/withdraw options before defender gets submerge option?
So instead of this order in TripleA: attacker submerge?, defender submerge?, attacker withdraw?
It should be this order in TripleA: attacker submerge?, attacker withdraw?, defender submerge?
I believe this only impacts maps which have submerge after battle rather than before (revised, classic, etc)?
@redrum
The Revised Rulebook allows retreating submarines from both sides by submerging.
This action takes place during step 7 “Press Attack or Retreat” of the Combat Sequence.
On the attacking nation’s turn it is then the attacker who during this step decides (if the conditions are met) whether to retreat or continue the battle and whether to submerge or not.
Then the defender decides to submerge or not.
The current implementation in TripleA seems to introduce a step between step 6 “Remove Casualties” and step 7 “Press Attack or Retreat” by demanding a defender’s decision to submerge before step 7 and the attacker’s decision.
There is no concept in the rules that enforces a defender’s decision before an attacker’s decision.
Don't always trust TripleA when it comes to rules questions. Know the rules before you start … and better check what TripleA has done.
@Panther Alright. Yeah, right now, TripleA offers it in this order for revised after combat rolls:
This causes the problem that it gives the defender to opportunity to submerge which then would prevent the attacker from being able to retreat.
I’m going to update Triple to change the order it offers these options to:
Look at page 32 of Revised rules in the sub section, where it states: " A submarine may submerge in combat after the attacker and defender have fired, regardless of what other units do." Attacker fire is step 4 of combat, defender fire is step 5, so subs submerge after these 2 steps. Step 6 is remove casualties, and step 7 is attacker retreats. Why would the rules on page 32 be written like this if subs were meant to submerge after the attacker decided on a retreat option? They could have easily written that submarines may submerge in combat after the attacker decides on their retreat option. Instead, they were very clear of when it occurs, after the attacker and defender have fired. Just applying basic logic seems to indicate that triplea is programmed correctly. Unless the game designers have acknowledged that page 32 is a typo or rule error, then I don’t think it can just be ignored.
And, in fact, one could just as easily argue that the attacker must first know if defending subs are submerging or not before they decide whether to continue the attack or retreat.
The rules also clearly state on page 16 that subs submerge during step 7. This doesn’t conflict with page 32, as step 7 is after steps 4 and 5. Page 32 says after the attacker and defender have fired, but not immediately after.
Yes, I agree…although the quote from page 32 just seems meaningless then. They might as well have written that subs can submerge after weapons development…not immediately after, but just sometime after. Additionally, the way triplea is programmed does not conflict with anything on page 16 in the section describing step 7. It’s just a matter of interpreting everything that happens within step 7.
TripleA PR to update the order for revised rules to Attacker Submerge, Attacker Withdraw, Defender Submerge: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/pull/4820
This can be tested in the latest pre-release here: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases
@redrum said in Revised Submerge/Withdraw Order:
I’m going to update Triple to change the order it offers these options to:
- Attacker submerge?
- Attacker retreat?
- Defender submerge?
Well, this is not how it actually works. I believe it should be something like:
I get that it is substantially the same, but it feels weird to have the “submerge” sub-steps set apart by the retreat sub-step, so I think it would be better having first the retreat yes/no choice and, immediately thereafter, the attacker’s option to submerge any, before the retreat actually happening on board, only for what was not submerged.
Also in the spirit of the intended behaviour, it would not look correct if the retreating physically happens on the board not exactly at the same moment as the submerge, but thereafter.
@bayder said in Revised Submerge/Withdraw Order:
They might as well have written that subs can submerge after weapons development…not immediately after, but just sometime after.
I thought the exact same thing myself immediately.:grin: Really, any normal person when you say “this happens after that” understands it that way; “immediately” is just redundant.
It’s all good since we have the authorities here, but I don’t think the Rulebook can be really defended on the wording. Page 32 definitely gives the wrong hint and page 16 is far from clear; pretty sure this would be argued upon forever, if we didn’t get an official answer.
@Panther Quick question. The defender should still be able to decide to submerge any also if the attacker retreated or submerged all, right?
@Cernel Sorry for answering only by now. It has been a quick question but the answer took me some time, that I did not always have during the last days.
Actually I would like to pass the answer to your question to @Krieghund here.
LHTR state on page 29: “Defending submarines may withdraw by submerging after any round of combat.”
But this is explicitly restricted on page 16: “If the attacker has not withdrawn all units, defending submarines may submerge.”
In other words: In case there is nothing left to withdraw from a defending submarine cannot submerge.
OOB rules unfortunately lack this clear statement.
A hint could be found on page 32. Here it reads: “A submarine may submerge in combat after the attacker and defender have fired, regardless of what other units do.”
Now the words “may submerge in combat” could give a hint on how to deal with a defending sub when the attacker has retreated/submerged all of his units, as we could consider combat being over then: no more combat -> no more submerging.
But again, this is not explicitly stated anywhere, neither could I find any past clarification about a submerging defending submarine in the given scenario, so let’s see what @Krieghund might have to add here.
Out of curiosity @Cernel, which scenario do you have in mind where you as defender would want to submerge a defending submarine, although the attacker retreated/submerged everything?
Don't always trust TripleA when it comes to rules questions. Know the rules before you start … and better check what TripleA has done.
@Panther said in Revised Submerge/Withdraw Order:
A hint could be found on page 32. Here it reads: “A submarine may submerge in combat after the attacker and defender have fired, regardless of what other units do.”
Now the words “may submerge in combat” could give a hint on how to deal with a defending sub when the attacker has retreated/submerged all of his units, as we could consider combat being over then: no more combat -> no more submerging.
This is correct. If the attacker retreats/submerges all units, combat is over, and the defender may not submerge.
@Panther said in Revised Submerge/Withdraw Order:
Out of curiosity @Cernel, which scenario do you have in mind where you as defender would want to submerge a defending submarine, although the attacker retreated/submerged everything?
As far as you play the actual A&A Revised game (and are not applying the ruleset to some custom/house maps/miniatures) the only case I can imagine would be obliging your opponent to move a carrier, to land some air. Not that I actually believe it would ever happen in a million games, mind you.
I would have actually imagined and assumed the answer would have been the opposite, since both attacker and defender retreat/submerge during the same step, then I would have seen the actions as simultaneous, differently from, for example, the fire actions, that happen on step 4 for the attacker and on step 5 for the defender (then why not putting both these actions together on step 4, if you do that for retreat/submerge, instead?).
If I might nit pick and point a finger at the rulebook, I think (beside not writing the not-immediately-after thing at page 32) in this case it would have been better saying that the attacker retreat/submerge on step 7 and the defender submerge on another step, if the combat is not over, calling it step 8. This simple different wording would have probably made all crystal clear, and saved this whole (and other!) discussions, as well as my question.
@Cernel said in Revised Submerge/Withdraw Order:
This simple different wording would have probably made all crystal clear, and saved this whole (and other!) discussions, as well as my question.
I suppose that those dicussions lead to a clearer wording in LHTR and are one reason why submerging submarines had been moved to another step during ‘Conduct Combat’ starting from and including the Anniversary ruleset.
