That’s a better idea, especially since Japan is usually somewhat stretched to the limits on their declaration of war on the US.
What are the pros and cons of no DOW on US by Japan
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a J1 can crush uk east income and units but the usa can overwhelm you when and if you greedily over commit to take the big money and fuel factories
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@taamvan I find that J1s consequences aren’t felt in the Pacific as much as they are in Europe. USA is sufficiently far away that Japan can take all the money islands and achieve near parity with them quickly as Weddingsinger outlines. Germany, however, has to consider American troops in Africa by round 2.
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U.S. can’t if you don’t swing all the way around to India. J2 you’ve got all the Money Islands and J3 you can take Malaya, J4 you head back to Philippines or off coast of FiC if you splurged for a naval base (I don’t). Japan’s fleet is strong enough to cover 2 transports and sz6 for sure for a turn or 2. Maybe 3 transport zones if US1 buys for Atlantic.
So for buys to keep US off Japan’s back…(ipcs based off a balanced Mod game)
J1 (26ipcs) 1 mIC and 2 transports
J2 (43ipcs) 1 MIC (FiC) and 1 carrier for sz 6, then rest on mech/tank for mainland
J3 (58ipcs) 1 or 2 carriers for sz 6 and inf/art for FiC and mech/tank for Northern mICand so on… every turn I check the battle math of whether the U.S. forces could hit sz6 and add a carrier, land 1-2 more planes on it… by J4 I usually have 2 or 3 carriers with my Southern fleet, and 3 or 4 carriers in sz 6 if the U.S. is buying for Pacific side. After J4 I usually start adding destroyers and subs to my fleet.
Its also a useful strategy because a bored U.S. player might hit the Caroline Islands… every single Japanese plane can reach from Japan, FiC, and your ships (and land on Palau or carriers).
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Claiming all the money islands J2 will likely require sacrificing transports, unless the USN are hanging out in Hawaii or north of there. I like Malaya & Celebes J2 because it puts UK_Pac’s income down sooner. I guess you can convoy it but ANZAC still gets NO income. Shan State generally needs to be hit because there’s a few troops to kill. Getting Celebes out of the way early means it doesn’t cause inconvenience later.
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Usually I lose one at Sumatra. If UKPac sends their planes to Yunnan, it means zero lost.
In this scenario Japan lost the cruiser sinking the UKPac battleship and a destroyer/sub sinking UKPac’s other ships. There is still a cruiser, destroyer, and carrier with 4 planes at sz 6 to prevent a U.S. attack.
Celebes can only be reached by ANZAC’s ships, no planes, so Java needs more protection.
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@weddingsinger Only one more DD at Java? Seems that it’s enough for what USA can get to SZ54 US1. Interesting but does losing that TT make it hard to take India J4? And potentially another inf on India with only one sub convoying SZ37. Also are you vulnerable to the USA attacking SZ42 to dent the CV with a follow up attack by ANZAC? Seems like it to me. I guess it depends what the allies do round one but it doesn’t seem like that will work against a maximum effort to attack the money islands.
I actually use my last TT to grab an extra load of troops from Tokyo if I can.
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@simon33 Great questions…
I don’t care about taking Calcutta J4. My goal is to turtle UKPac while I secure Japan’s income and preserve as many planes as I can. That means J3 I take Malaya and gather my ships there, not losing more than 1 transport if I can help it, and just flat out keeping the Money Islands. UKPac will collect 5-7 ipcs on UK3 with 1-2 subs convoying them and the bombers maxing their factory.
Here, if the Allies decide to 1-2 punch with U.S. and ANZAC to hit Java, I might lose a naval group but he’ll lose all of ANZAC’s ships and some of the U.S.’ but Japan will still have 4 transports and earning 55+ ipcs and can keep fighting for more. J4 is when the Japanese fleet should gather at Philippines and mainland’s factories outputs will start hitting the front, so I start pushing them back to Calcutta, maybe invade Eastern Russia for the extra 5+ ipcs.
I’m not sure how it would go if UKPac, ANZAC, and U.S. all used their 3 transports to flood the Money Islands and were aggressive.
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I can say from experience that Weddingsingers Japan strategy is solid gold. I use essentially the same game plan whenever commanding Japan and it’s almost always successful. So successful that it actually forces UK and ANZAC to attack turn 2 so you get a free round without US involvement.
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I don’t really understand why you wouldn’t take Calcutta as soon as you reasonably can. What else would Japan do? Attack China? ANZAC crush? Has no real bearing on fighting the USN, I would say.
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@simon33 The end goal of course is Calcutta, but to achieve that it’s necessary to first target the UK economy. Once your economy is able to keep pace with the US you can essentially walk into Calcutta because UK has like 6 IPCs a turn.
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I guess it depends. As Japan, I’m used to opponents who go hard at the Pacific, so protecting sz6 and my ability to keep the Money Islands or retake them, is #1. Then I take a longer approach using the troops from the mainland factories rather than focusing on my transports.
So if the U.S. is spending on the Atlantic side, yeah, go for Calcutta. If taking India will cost me all my ground troops and some planes and ANZAC/US can take islands and start convoying sz6 then its not worth it.
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@weddingsinger Interesting comments but the Allies really need to do a lot to prevent a J5 take down of Calcutta. By then all the starting troops from Jehol and south can reach Calcutta, or at least the survivors plus troops produced out of FIC. If you have no transports at all helping out and a few perhaps optimal moves working out like stacking Burma UK1, taking out land units UK1, building artillery C2, killing a bunch of units in Yunnan C3 (or preventing the Japanese from even trying to move their stack in). If everything works out, you might stall it until J6 but it’s hard work.
In spite of USN actions, I reckon you should be able to bring in some amphibious units to take it J4 or J5. If I can’t get it J5 I think the allies have played a great game.
Is J6 or maybe J5 about what you’re thinking?
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I’m playing a game right now where i am japan, my teammate is setup for Moscow T5 win w/ 78% chance of victory.I opted to not make DOW with the Japanese to force the US to stay at its borders for an extra turn, and its proving beneficial. We had some really bad rolling in the Atlantic and Mediterranean on T1 (causing us to lose a lot for not much return). It appears to have allowed the Germans the ability to get to Moscow while running lean on the Atlantic wall. All that to say, i like J2 DOW, but sometimes situations arise for you to stall to help ze germans!
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@simon33 J5-J7. IF I’m in control as Japan, around J4/J5 I invade Russia, gobble up China. Maybe position to start bombing Moscow if it’ll be helpful. Stack the Japanese fleet and just keep gobbling up income. By J5 or J6 it should be in the 60s, maybe 70.
So if Calcutta turtled and it’ll cost me too much, I just don’t rush if it’ll leave things too open from the U.S. direction since its a 2 or 3 turn commitment (to Calcutta, 1 back to Malaya/Java… one more if you need to get back towards sz6). Because if I’m rolliing up IPCs in Russia and China still, I care more about protecting what I have and dropping 8 new destroyers into my navy on a turn than I do whether I get India on J5 or J7 when I can position myself to threaten ANZAC, too, and be patient.
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@Aaron_the_Warmonger said in What are the pros and cons of no DOW on US by Japan:
I’m playing a game right now where i am japan, my teammate is setup for Moscow T5 win w/ 78% chance of victory.I opted to not make DOW with the Japanese to force the US to stay at its borders for an extra turn, and its proving beneficial. We had some really bad rolling in the Atlantic and Mediterranean on T1 (causing us to lose a lot for not much return). It appears to have allowed the Germans the ability to get to Moscow while running lean on the Atlantic wall. All that to say, i like J2 DOW, but sometimes situations arise for you to stall to help ze germans!
Huh? If there’s no DOW by J3, USA can DOW on everyone at the end of US3.
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@simon33 if i don’t DOW on J2, i typically do it J3, but, even if i don’t do it J3, the US is restricted on movement through T3 as the declaration of war does not occur until collect income phase. so, if my german ally took some bad dice in europe, i can effectively buy him 4 turns of no US intervention, and i just try to look menacing in the pacific. :pouting_cat: (thats my best menacing)
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Oh, thought you meant US still wasn’t at war on turn 5. You just meant it hadn’t reached Europe yet. SZ91 is as far as USA can get before G5 in that case.
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@simon33 yep! that was about it, was just trying to note sometimes you have to buy some time for your friends!
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I don’t believe I saw it mentioned, but if as Japan I don’t attack on Turn 1 I will go after Russia In the Far East and Amur. Taking away IPC from Russia will always help your German Ally. Every 3 IPC is 1 less troop in Moscow. I also like the fact that as Japan if I don’t attack they are limited to building 3 in the Pacific and if they want more then a lot less in the Atlantic. The plus side of attacking is the possibility of killing the Anzac transport. So if you get lucky with that have 2 infantry take Shan State while also taking out Borneo,Yunnan, French Indo, Philippines, Kwangtung and the areas of China that border then you make a ton of IPC and India gets a ton less while killing the bonus. Also if done right you can set up to take Malaya on turn 2 which is more of a target in my opinion than the money islands. India losing 3 Japan gaining 3 and Anzac losing a bonus is huge. then from there the islands are easy to take. Even if dice rolling is so so it doable. I haven’t rolled well in a game in over a year and that no exaggeration and I still do very well with Japan.
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If you do like @weddingsinger and DoW early but fight conservatively, saving your planes and focusing on the money islands / SZ 6 rather than India, how do you respond to a UK buildup in the Middle East? It seems to me that a pair of factories in Iraq and Persia cranking out a balanced mix of units can restore India’s offensive threat even if Japan owns Malaya and Borneo.
Also, does anyone want to be more specific about how they knock out those last 6 to 9 IPCs of the UK Pac economy? Maybe I’ve just had terrible luck, but I can’t seem to bomb India without losing a bomber to AAA fire and/or interceptors, and you only start with 2 subs, one of which sometimes dies fighting over the money islands / Philippines, and one of which can be sunk by the starting UK Pac destroyer. By J2 I have some spare income to buy a sub, usually, but that sub won’t make it to the West Indian Ocean until J5 or so…by which time the UK can often build another destroyer in Egypt, South Africa, or Persia.
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