What are the pros and cons of no DOW on US by Japan

[genken]

I am Axis in this latest war. I have only tried no DOW on US once. It did work out but I can’t remember how well. US would not collect their 30 IPC, Japan would not come under attack until US4, Japan would still collect 10 IPC, Japan could possibly wipe out China and position for attacks on Anzac, UK and US. If UK or Anzac attacks Japan, would a counterattack bring US into the war? Has anyone tried this?

[simon33]

If UK or ANZAC attacks Japan first or moves into China, Japan can attack them and can avoid bringing USA into the war until turn 4.

[weddingsinger]

@genken

Pro/Con is about trade offs. So… if Japan does NOT attack until J3…
Pros: No U.S. in the war. They earn 20-25 ipcs less, are limited to 3 units per factory, can’t move units away from U.S. shores.
Japan can focus on China (and Russia, I guess, if that’s your thing. Germany taking London is easier since no U.S. reinforcements reach London before Sea Lion.

Con: Japan will earn less income. The U.S.’ 20ish ipcs will still be earned, but by UKPac and ANZAC, which is a more immediate issue come turn 3/4 than the U.S. No factory on FiC until J4.

For Japan’s income: No attack, you earn an extra 20ipcs from a national objective, but only 10-12 ipcs from taking Chinese territories (combined ipcs from J1 and J2). J1 40, J2 43, Then on J3 you’ll only earn around 40ipcs. Maybe 45ish.

With a J1, on J1 you earn 40ipcs (even), UKPac is -7ipcs, U.S. +20; J2 you earn 55-60ipcs (now +12-20ipcs over a J3 attack), UKPac is -14ipcs over 2 turns, U.S. is +40. J3 you earn 60+ ipcs (+30-40ipcs over not attacking on J1) while UKPac is -24ipcs and U.S. is +40. ANZAC will also earn 5 extra ipcs if you attack, assuming if you don’t attack they’ll take 1-2 money islands.

So Japan’s income goes up enough to about cover the extra 40ipcs the U.S. gets, but UKPac will earn 20-27 fewer ipcs (plus you can bomb them on J2).

/my math assumes Japan takes J1 Philipines, Borneo, Hong Kong, FiC and 3 Chinese territories, J2 you take other 3 money islands; J3 you take Malaya

[weddingsinger]

@genken

So if the ipcs work out in Japan’s favor by attacking J1, does this weaken your attack on China? Only if you go hard for Calcutta.

The factory Japan builds on J1 to place on the Chinese coast can build 1-3 mechs and/or tanks a turn. More than enough to keep destroying China unless another power steps in with help.

The factory in FiC on J2 produces for transports to keep the islands or to keep threatening India.

Tokyo builds carriers for the first few turns since you have planes to land on them to defend SZ6 while most of your fleet is south, keeping your transports alive. That neutralizes the U.S. threat.

And if the U.S. is building in the Atlantic instead, skip the carriers and push hard on the mainland.

[M36]

Wedding Singer has pretty much covered all the important parts. You can actually take FIC without declaring war on the other allies, but it cost you eight IPCs. Some players think it’s worth it so you can get the complex there J2.

[genken]

Thank you Simon33, weddingsinger and M36. Much appreciated.

[weddingsinger]

@genken

It popped into my head that I never covered whether a J2 is still good. Personally, I’ve never really done it, but think I can walk through it. The positive here is that no J1 limits the U.S. and leaves Sea Lion a stronger possibility for Germany and can be part of a Calcutta Crush move, but UKPac will be stronger and Japan will have one fewer carrier or make some other sacrifice.

J1 is still buying 2 transports and a factory for the mainland. You gather your forces and shift to sz36 anything that would have been used on a J1. Hit China hard. Earn 40 ipcs (30 base + 10 bonus for no war)

J2 you can still attack Hong Kong, you take Philippines with the 2 transports you bought J1, your original 3 transports can take 3 money islands, or 2 and maybe Malaya… but it depends on whether ANZAC or UKPac will be able to sink them. So let’s say you can take 2 islands (Borneo and Celebes). IPCs approx 43. 10+ fewer than a J1, about even with if you did a J3.

J3 you should be able to get money islands and Malaya, hitting around 55+, put your 2nd factory on the mainland.

So Japan is -15 or -20 on ipcs compared to a J1, but ahead of a J3 by 15.
U.S. is -18 ipcs
UKPac is… unknown, but +10 to +14 depending on if they take Sumatra and a few other things
ANZAC is anywhere from -1 to -10 depending on if they take Java ANZAC1. Their other lost income is national objectives.

[simon33]

I’ve done the J2 a number of times. It is just less strong than a J1. One of the worst problems is ANZAC fighters have a real go of getting to India. Japan can still hit a Java stack, but at pretty significant cost, frequently. The Qld fighter can make it easily via Sumatra. It’s better for Japan to take FIC and lose 8IPC to put down the IC on FIC J2. So that begs the question, why not just J1?

[M36]

The sleeping giant, that’s why. Personally I’ve settled on J3 most every game. I typically wipe out China, secure the “Outer defense perimeter” and position enough forces to drop the hammer on UK and Anzac and they can’t really build enough forces or IPCs to stop anything J3. Now the thing is my opponents know this so they preemptively attack UK2 and ANZAC2 so it’s important to position forces wisely and not leave anything exposed.

[weddingsinger]

@simon33 I’m with you, I think. J2 is supposed to get UK and US to buy for a Sea Lion defense, but J1 is sooo much stronger that I don’t think its worth it. If UK and US don’t buy for that on turn 1, even with US active, I’d still go for it as Germany anyway.

@M36 as I outline above, J1 vs J3 is a MASSIVE difference for Japan, too. Assuming you don’t take FiC early for your J3, Japan earns as much extra doing a J1 as the U.S. gets and UKPac will earn around 24 ipcs less.

[genken]

@weddingsinger simon33 M36
Thanks again Simon33, weddingsinger and M36. Much appreciated.

[taamvan]

a J1 can crush uk east income and units but the usa can overwhelm you when and if you greedily over commit to take the big money and fuel factories

[M36]

@taamvan I find that J1s consequences aren’t felt in the Pacific as much as they are in Europe. USA is sufficiently far away that Japan can take all the money islands and achieve near parity with them quickly as Weddingsinger outlines. Germany, however, has to consider American troops in Africa by round 2.

[weddingsinger]

@taamvan

U.S. can’t if you don’t swing all the way around to India. J2 you’ve got all the Money Islands and J3 you can take Malaya, J4 you head back to Philippines or off coast of FiC if you splurged for a naval base (I don’t). Japan’s fleet is strong enough to cover 2 transports and sz6 for sure for a turn or 2. Maybe 3 transport zones if US1 buys for Atlantic.

So for buys to keep US off Japan’s back…(ipcs based off a balanced Mod game)
J1 (26ipcs) 1 mIC and 2 transports
J2 (43ipcs) 1 MIC (FiC) and 1 carrier for sz 6, then rest on mech/tank for mainland
J3 (58ipcs) 1 or 2 carriers for sz 6 and inf/art for FiC and mech/tank for Northern mIC

and so on… every turn I check the battle math of whether the U.S. forces could hit sz6 and add a carrier, land 1-2 more planes on it… by J4 I usually have 2 or 3 carriers with my Southern fleet, and 3 or 4 carriers in sz 6 if the U.S. is buying for Pacific side. After J4 I usually start adding destroyers and subs to my fleet.

Its also a useful strategy because a bored U.S. player might hit the Caroline Islands… every single Japanese plane can reach from Japan, FiC, and your ships (and land on Palau or carriers).

[simon33]

Claiming all the money islands J2 will likely require sacrificing transports, unless the USN are hanging out in Hawaii or north of there. I like Malaya & Celebes J2 because it puts UK_Pac’s income down sooner. I guess you can convoy it but ANZAC still gets NO income. Shan State generally needs to be hit because there’s a few troops to kill. Getting Celebes out of the way early means it doesn’t cause inconvenience later.

[weddingsinger]

@simon33

Usually I lose one at Sumatra. If UKPac sends their planes to Yunnan, it means zero lost.

In this scenario Japan lost the cruiser sinking the UKPac battleship and a destroyer/sub sinking UKPac’s other ships. There is still a cruiser, destroyer, and carrier with 4 planes at sz 6 to prevent a U.S. attack.

Celebes can only be reached by ANZAC’s ships, no planes, so Java needs more protection.

[simon33]

@weddingsinger Only one more DD at Java? Seems that it’s enough for what USA can get to SZ54 US1. Interesting but does losing that TT make it hard to take India J4? And potentially another inf on India with only one sub convoying SZ37. Also are you vulnerable to the USA attacking SZ42 to dent the CV with a follow up attack by ANZAC? Seems like it to me. I guess it depends what the allies do round one but it doesn’t seem like that will work against a maximum effort to attack the money islands.

I actually use my last TT to grab an extra load of troops from Tokyo if I can.

[weddingsinger]

@simon33 Great questions…

I don’t care about taking Calcutta J4. My goal is to turtle UKPac while I secure Japan’s income and preserve as many planes as I can. That means J3 I take Malaya and gather my ships there, not losing more than 1 transport if I can help it, and just flat out keeping the Money Islands. UKPac will collect 5-7 ipcs on UK3 with 1-2 subs convoying them and the bombers maxing their factory.

Here, if the Allies decide to 1-2 punch with U.S. and ANZAC to hit Java, I might lose a naval group but he’ll lose all of ANZAC’s ships and some of the U.S.’ but Japan will still have 4 transports and earning 55+ ipcs and can keep fighting for more. J4 is when the Japanese fleet should gather at Philippines and mainland’s factories outputs will start hitting the front, so I start pushing them back to Calcutta, maybe invade Eastern Russia for the extra 5+ ipcs.

I’m not sure how it would go if UKPac, ANZAC, and U.S. all used their 3 transports to flood the Money Islands and were aggressive.

[M36]

I can say from experience that Weddingsingers Japan strategy is solid gold. I use essentially the same game plan whenever commanding Japan and it’s almost always successful. So successful that it actually forces UK and ANZAC to attack turn 2 so you get a free round without US involvement.

[simon33]

I don’t really understand why you wouldn’t take Calcutta as soon as you reasonably can. What else would Japan do? Attack China? ANZAC crush? Has no real bearing on fighting the USN, I would say.