Cheesy Air Tactics

[Bierwagen]

A UK BOM flies in without FTR escort and ties up 3 German FTRs so that they can’t fight for one round.  Seems rather cheesy since GER outnumbers the air so tremendously.  It’s a good tactics – but doesn’t seem to cut the common sense test.

The ground forces consist of 2 UK ARM + 2 UK INF vs. 2 GER ARM + 1 ART.

We won’t discuss how GER ended having such crappy defense (e.g., new guy 1st time playing) – the point I’m trying to convey is that a single suicide BOM shouldn’t be able to pull off all the Air Forces so that Germany doesn’t get Air Superiority.

The UK is hoping the dice will pan out in his favor and kill all ground units forcing the overwhelming GER AF to retreat.

Perhaps some rule change that allows defenders to ignore BOM if they aren’t escorted.  Or a 1-for-1 kind of ratio.  Any thoughts or insights appreciated.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

A UK BOM flies in without FTR escort and ties up 3 German FTRs so that they can’t fight for one round.  Seems rather cheesy since GER outnumbers the air so tremendously.  It’s a good tactics – but doesn’t seem to cut the common sense test.

The rules were recently changed on this. Defender planes in excess of attacking planes can still perform DAS in other territories. But in that case a lone bomber could only perform a SBR mission… it cannot perform what i think your using it for…namely as some kind of counter air (CA)  mission. So essentially you not playing it correct if you have been doing that.

The ground forces consist of 2 UK ARM + 2 UK INF vs. 2 GER ARM + 1 ART.

Ok in this case they are used correctly, with attacking land units as part of ground support mission. Again excess planes can be elected to perform DAS as the defender wishes.

The UK is hoping the dice will pan out in his favor and kill all ground units forcing the overwhelming GER AF to retreat.

Thats possible but a calculated risk, because as you know plane hits go against planes first before allocation to non air units. This is what air superiority rules are about.

[Bierwagen]

The scenario was that UK brought the following into Germany (Berlin) for an invasion:

1 BOM in support of Ground attack (e.g., no special mission)
1 Shore Bombardment from a DD
2 ARM
2 INF
1 ART

vs. Germany Defending

3 FTR
2 ARM
1 ART

I called it the “suicide BMR ATK”.  Since it wasn’t a CA mission Germany was forced to engage the BOM and not provide any support to it’s ground forces.

It just didn’t seem to pass the sniff test that a lone BOM could tie up the entire German AF.  If the ground forces had managed to kill the GER defenders then the AF would have had to retreat.  Germany would have fallen.

But, if I read you right you are saying GER could have used 1 FTR vs. the BOM and the other two in support of the ground war.  Since a BOM by definition CAN’T achieve Air Superiority without an escort – it can only tie up resources and die.

So with the BOM flying around GER techinically can’t achieve Air Superiority (even though it really does) and can’t attack ground forces or give +1 to GER ARM.

Sacrificing the 15 point UK BOM neutralized GER 30 point AF for 1 round (or more if GER gets REALLY unlucky) in an attempt to destroy everything on the ground and force the FTR to retreat.

It doesn’t add up that you can deny Air Superiority with a piece that can’t gain it by itself.

Other than that things are going GREAT!  I have 5 new converts to AARHE that were very resistant.  We’re still trying to play a game correctly … just ONCE!  There are lot of new exciting moving parts to play with.  We just started a 3rd game.  Axis have won twice.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

The scenario was that UK brought the following into Germany (Berlin) for an invasion:

1 BOM in support of Ground attack (e.g., no special mission)
1 Shore Bombardment from a DD
2 ARM
2 INF
1 ART

vs. Germany Defending

3 FTR
2 ARM
1 ART

I called it the “suicide BMR ATK”.  Since it wasn’t a CA mission Germany was forced to engage the BOM and not provide any support to it’s ground forces.

It just didn’t seem to pass the sniff test that a lone BOM could tie up the entire German AF.  If the ground forces had managed to kill the GER defenders then the AF would have had to retreat.  Germany would have fallen.

The bomber would be lost in the first round and those 3 fighters would be taking out enemy armor on round two, so the net is the attacker would be in a worst position if he tried that move. Remember that Air units with Air Sup. can elect to choose their targets as long as they have supporting ground units.

But, if I read you right you are saying GER could have used 1 FTR vs. the BOM and the other two in support of the ground war.  Since a BOM by definition CAN’T achieve Air Superiority without an escort – it can only tie up resources and die.

I was reading your trick as if you had intended on using the fighters for DAS elsewhere, IN the case of Berlin invasion however, each fighter rolls until that bomber is killed…if its killed on the second roll, the thirds fighter goes in for its roll against attacking land units.

So with the BOM flying around GER technically can’t achieve Air Superiority (even though it really does) and can’t attack ground forces or give +1 to GER ARM.

now your switching your example around, before UK had the bomber and now it seems the Germans have it… unclear what your saying.

Sacrificing the 15 point UK BOM neutralized GER 30 point AF for 1 round (or more if GER gets REALLY unlucky) in an attempt to destroy everything on the ground and force the FTR to retreat.

NO not true, each fighter rolls out and when it hits the bomber, the remaining planes assist defender.

Other than that things are going GREAT!  I have 5 new converts to AARHE that were very resistant.  We’re still trying to play a game correctly … just ONCE!  There are lot of new exciting moving parts to play with.  We just started a 3rd game.  Axis have won twice.

It takes a little time to see our philosophy or system, but its intuitive. Your games will get real quick after a few more games because you learn it correctly.

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

The bomber would be lost in the first round and those 3 fighters would be taking out enemy armor on round two, so the net is the attacker would be in a worst position if he tried that move. Remember that Air units with Air Sup. can elect to choose their targets as long as they have supporting ground units.

Evening IL!

Bottom Line Up Front (BLUF):
I’m taking issue with an air unit that could never achieve Air Superiority (i.e., a BOM has no air attack value) tieing up air assets that do.

I don’t think a BOM with an attacking dogfighting value 0 should be able to fly solo into a country’s air space to deny an defending country’s AF from gaining/maintaining air superiority.  There should be some limitation to it on a 1-to-1 basis so this rule doesn’t get abused.

Agreed it is an expensive piece to throw away, but it doesn’t seem to pass the sniff test.

If a lone BOM comes into country supporting some ground force action and the defender has 3 FTR, then the defender should be able to scramble on a 1-to-1 basis and use the remaining FTR with the defending ground forces.

Perhaps tanks don’t get Air Superiority benefits until the BOM gets shot down or retreats, but the defender shouldn’t be penalized into comittiing all his air power vs. a stray BOM.

Can you walk me through the logic on this one again?

[Bierwagen]

Just an observation:

The current air supremecy rules seem to negatively impact BOM support as well.  It’s rare that I’ve acually seen a BOM roll an attack die in support of ground ops.  I usually see the defender retreat before a BOM get to roll any attack dice because gaining air superiority takes so long.

So, BOM’s don’t seem to have the versatility they once did in supporting ground action.  Perhaps they shouldn’t be forced into waiting until Air Supremecy is gained before they start dropping bombs.  Since they really don’t participate in the air war other than to become casaulties, they should be allowed to do something.

Any insights appreciated.

• Bierwagen

[Imperious Leader]

The current air supremacy rules seem to negatively impact BOM support as well.  It’s rare that I’ve acually seen a BOM roll an attack die in support of ground ops.  I usually see the defender retreat before a BOM get to roll any attack dice because gaining air superiority takes so long.

Yes true, but your chewing up his fighters everytime in those battles, while the only thing thats different is the air hits are going against other air units… Eventually air power is really important because he will soon not have anything and you will have devastating attack punch…even if its one round. Air units unopposed hit his Tanks, which is a huge deal to him. Also, every time he backs up hes losing IPC.

So, BOM’s don’t seem to have the versatility they once did in supporting ground action.  Perhaps they shouldn’t be forced into waiting until Air Supremecy is gained before they start dropping bombs.  Since they really don’t participate in the air war other than to become casualties, they should be allowed to do something.

well we gave them other colorful duties, like interdiction, SBR, Air Transport, Paratroopers etc…

Perhaps the case can be made to allow planes in excess of defending planes to go against land targets… what do you think?

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

NO not true, each fighter rolls out and when it hits the bomber, the remaining planes assist defender.

This one is confusing the hell outta me.

Air Supremacy
When only one side has air units at the beginning of
combat cycle, air units fight with normal combat values
when matched 1-to-1 with a friendly land unit. Excess
air units fight at combat value of 1. Hits must be
allocated on other land units before Infantry. Fighter
increases Tank’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis.

I intrepreted the rules to say that you can’t shoot at ground targets until you own the air at the beginning of the Land Combat: Sequence.

So, should I interpret this as “if you outnumber the attacking air units and have air units that haven’t fired in Opening-fire, then you can use them to hit ground targets in Main-round”?

I like this interpretation.  You’re ARM doesn’t get the +1 ATK because you didn’t have Air Supremacy at the beginning of your turn, but your air units that didn’t fire get a DEF roll instead of doing nothing until the second round of combat.

Because of the paragraph:

Land Combat: Air Units
When both sides have air units present air units fight
with dog fighting values. Aerial combat occurs and air
units do not attack land units.

We’ve been playing that air units don’t get to participate in land combat until Air Supremacy is achieved by one side.
Thanks,

• Bierwagen

[tekkyy]

Yes the rule can allow a smaller air force to stop a larger air force (in the same territory) from hitting land units.

The idea is that until you secure the skies your air units can’t perform tactical bombing. Hence we don’t allow their hits on ground units yet.

Yeah 1-to-1 is more realistic. There may be a way to solve this by making CA (Counter-Air) a multi-cycle combat. Thinking out loud here. Attacking CA air units are dedicated and cannot perform other combats this turn. We could make it the same for air units defending a CA.

Of course, this only stops a smaller defending air force from stopping a larger attacking air force from hitting land units. (Attacker can use CA to strongly tie down defending air units, provided the player has more air units.) It doesn’t stop a smaller attacking air force from stopping a larger defending air force from hitting land units. Though I don’t think its too bad to give attacker this advantage.

[Bierwagen]

@tekkyy:

Yes the rule can allow a smaller air force to stop a larger air force (in the same territory) from hitting land units.

I’ve seen this used twice now, and both time it is like chewing on tin-foil.  Usually, attacking Germany.  The tactic is that if you tie up the large air force with a small one (or a lone bomber) for one round then you can destroy the ground forces in one round – forcing the large air force to retreat.

Bada-bing… Bada-boom!  You win!

The person with the larger air force should have the option of matching 1-to-1 and using the rest of the planes in normal ground operations.

Of course you wouldn’t give them “Air Supremacy” bonuses and move them to fight in “Main-Round” instead of “Opening Combat”.  You’d still use the 1-to-1 matching with friendly land units or combat value is 1 rule as well.

Note:
Of course the real problem is:  “Shame on the defender” for not really defending with more boots on the ground.

Additionally, we weren’t using the rules of Amphibious Assault only gets one shore bombardment per 4 units landing.  Usually by this time US/UK has 3-4 DD & a BB left over from the U-Boat wars.  So, implementing this rule could change things up drastically.

I’ll give it a shot this weekend and keep you posted what we see.

[Imperious Leader]

I’ve seen this used twice now, and both time it is like chewing on tin-foil.  Usually, attacking Germany.  The tactic is that if you tie up the large air force with a small one (or a lone bomber) for one round then you can destroy the ground forces in one round – forcing the large air force to retreat.

Bada-bing… Bada-boom!  You win!

The person with the larger air force should have the option of matching 1-to-1 and using the rest of the planes in normal ground operations.

That defeats the idea of DAS missions, because they are used to protect land units and deny air superiority of the attacker. If you have a larger force eventually you will wear down the defender because hes losing more planes because of your advantage. When this happens he reached the breaking point and his offensive power on land is unsupported and he will have to buy more planes to defend his land units. We are trying to achieve this so players will buy planes throughout the game.

Of course you wouldn’t give them “Air Supremacy” bonuses and move them to fight in “Main-Round” instead of “Opening Combat”.  You’d still use the 1-to-1 matching with friendly land units or combat value is 1 rule as well.

well try it in your games and report the result after a complete game.

Note:
Of course the real problem is:  “Shame on the defender” for not really defending with more boots on the ground.

Additionally, we weren’t using the rules of Amphibious Assault only gets one shore bombardment per 4 units landing.  Usually by this time US/UK has 3-4 DD & a BB left over from the U-Boat wars.  So, implementing this rule could change things up drastically.

well the rule is 1 SB per 4 units landing, PLUS +1 to each unit matching on the first round with each SB…

so you land 12 units and have 5 warships ( BB, CA, DD)  you get 3 free SB, plus 5 units are boosted +1 on the first round.

Also, infantry only land on first round, followed by all other types of units on 2+ rounds… So no more cheap battles knowing your just trying to exchange pieces and not even have a chance to take the territory.

[Bierwagen]

@Imperious:

Also, infantry only land on first round, followed by all other types of units on 2+ rounds… So no more cheap battles knowing your just trying to exchange pieces and not even have a chance to take the territory.

Oh, that was an interesting rule!  I remember seeing this one – but I think it was from an older version.  Maybe 20080209.  That doesn’t exist in 20080724 anymore.

Also, if Germany were attacked all the defending infantry would be at +3 wouldn’t they?  (e.g., +1 for VC ID and +2 for IC ID).  We weren’t playing with that either.

[Imperious Leader]

Also, if Germany were attacked all the defending infantry would be at +3 wouldn’t they?  (e.g., +1 for VC ID and +2 for IC ID).  We weren’t playing with that either.

yes thats correct on the first round only.  I do know that artillery defending fire in the first round as preemptive.

Attacking Battleship, Destroyer (and optional unit Cruiser) may choose to roll for offshore bombardment.
Offshore bombardment is limited to one roll for every four offloaded land units. Each ship performing
rolling for offshore bombardment increases Infantry or Airborne Infantry’s attack by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis.
Defending Infrastructure Defense performs offshore bombardment against ships rolling for offshore bombardment
or enemy Transport. The procedure is the same as Anti-Air [ on page 8]. Each Infrastructure
Defense increases Infantry’s defense by 1 on a 1-to-1 basis.

One thing on invading mountain terrain or small islands you can only invade with 2 land units.

Land units must stop on entering desert, snowy, or mountainous terrain. Tank (and optional unit Mechanized
Infantry) may not blitz through them. Defending land units in snowy or mountainous terrain have defense
increased by 1 in first cycle of combat. Small territories such as Gibraltar cannot be occupied by more than
2 units and cannot be attacked by more than 2 land units.

It should actually read small islands and territories. The SMALL islands are the obvious ‘groups of dots’

Midway
Hawaii
Solomons
Marchall islands
Azores
Malta
Okinawa
Aleutians

not Indonesia or Borneo or ceylon etc…