Vichy France

[poloplayer15]

for both Europe and global, you could have France become the axis controlled Vichy French. all you have to do is move the minor IC from Normandy to southern France. This would only happen when Paris and Normandy territories fell and the french player would have to make a deal with Germany.

[thomashawk]

Awesome and simple rule. Also, these units should never be able to leave French original territories.

[oztea]

France becomes an Axis power if Paris is captured on the first turn. French units may not make combat moves against units of an allied power, but may still capture empty allied territory

France collects IPCs, but has no factory. One may be built in South France. If it saves enough

When France collects IPCs it gives half to Germany. French territories can also be taken over by other axis powers much like Dutch territories are taken over by the allies.

When Paris is liberated, Germany may remove 1/2 of the french units on the gameboard of its choice

The french unit in UK becomes an ANZAC infantry

[calvinhobbesliker]

@oztea:

France becomes an Axis power if Paris is captured on the first turn. French units may not make combat moves against units of an allied power, but may still capture empty allied territory

France collects IPCs, but has no factory. One may be built in South France. If it saves enough

When France collects IPCs it gives half to Germany. French territories can also be taken over by other axis powers much like Dutch territories are taken over by the allies.

When Paris is liberated, Germany may remove 1/2 of the french units on the gameboard of its choice

The french unit in UK becomes an ANZAC infantry

No Free France?

[UN Spacy]

You realize this house rule screws up one of Italy’s NO, right?

Also, that sounds too complex for a game like this and I play Twilight Imperium! We already have enough political rules to bog newcomers down with.

[oztea]

France “becomes” an axis power

South france would be axis controled

No, I need no freefrench. Those are UK units to me

[crusaderiv]

France “becomes” an axis power
South france would be axis controled
No, I need no freefrench. Those are UK units to me

No realism at all!

[UN Spacy]

@oztea:

France “becomes” an axis power

South france would be axis controled

No, I need no freefrench. Those are UK units to me

I didn’t know UK units where the color blue, and wore Adrian helmets :?

[lnmajor]

I used to play ZENOs World at War that had extensive Vichy rules. I always thought that the Vichy rules were complicated and bogged the game down for very little gain for either side. these rules were implamented as soon as France falls(G1). Its like you spend all this time setting the game up, crack a beer and ready to roll dice and in turn 1 all of a sudden the rule book comes out and its a bummer.

[Flashman]

If France becomes Axis, then Italy becomes Allied when Rome is captured.

The simplest way to deal with Vichy (or any country that loses its capital) is to treat each tt as a true neutral; that is it will do nothing until it is attacked, when it becomes friendly to the opposite side from the attacker.

Maybe the UK can have one turn to move ground units into French tts, in which case they become FF(UK) units without a fight.  Similarly the Germans can move units into Italian tts for one turn after Rome falls, after which the surviving Italians will fight any invaders.

The difficulty comes when you already have mixed forces in the tt; should UK/G in these examples need to have more units in total in the tt than F/I in order to gain control for free?  If they do not, does a battle occur between the former allies, or do the “aliens” automatically retreat to friendly tt?

[crusaderiv]

The simplest way to deal with Vichy (or any country that loses its capital) is to treat each tt as a true neutral; that is it will do nothing until it is attacked, when it becomes friendly to the opposite side from the attacker.

• Yep, that’s the good way.

Maybe the UK can have one turn to move ground units into French tts, in which case they become FF(UK) units without a fight.

• UK/Free french must fight to get the control of a Vichy TT. (Remember Madagascar,Syria, French Indochina).
  You can also influence some african TT to join feee french. (on a roll of 2 or less)

The difficulty comes when you already have mixed forces in the tt; should UK/G in these examples need to have more units in total in the tt than F/I in order to gain control for free?  If they do not, does a battle occur between the former allies, or do the “aliens” automatically retreat to friendly tt?

• Too much complicated.

[calvinhobbesliker]

@crusaderiv:

The simplest way to deal with Vichy (or any country that loses its capital) is to treat each tt as a true neutral; that is it will do nothing until it is attacked, when it becomes friendly to the opposite side from the attacker.

• Yep, that’s the good way.

Maybe the UK can have one turn to move ground units into French tts, in which case they become FF(UK) units without a fight.

• UK/Free french must fight to get the control of a Vichy TT. (Remember Madagascar,Syria, French Indochina).
  You can also influence some african TT to join feee french. (on a roll of 2 or less)

The difficulty comes when you already have mixed forces in the tt; should UK/G in these examples need to have more units in total in the tt than F/I in order to gain control for free?  If they do not, does a battle occur between the former allies, or do the “aliens” automatically retreat to friendly tt?

• Too much complicated.

But then if Japan attacks FIC, then all true neutrals will become pro-allied

[UN Spacy]

Honestly, I’m glad there’s no Vichy rules in this game. It would definately be interesting to see a House Rule of it, but it’s unnecessarily complex for the official game.

[lnmajor]

Totally agree with CRUSADERIV and UN SPACY

[rhesusman]

Having the Vichy regime in the game doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for historical reasons.  Vichy played a negligible military role in the war and was completely occupied by Germany in 1942 anyway.  The terms of the armistice with Germany prevented the Vichy regime from producing anything other than infantry (at severely capped numbers).  The only French colonies of any importance that the Vichy regime managed to hold were the North African ones (sub-Saharan Africa, I believe, very quickly joined the Resistance), and those forces defected pretty quickly to the Allies after Operation Torch.

Adding Vichy rules would give the regime significance in the game that it didn’t have during the war.  Of course, you could argue, who cares, it’s just a game, but isn’t historical accuracy the only reason anyone is talking about this in the first place?

What would make more sense (from a historical, if not necessarily gameplay perspective), would be for Italy to be eliminated after Allied capture of Sicily or Southern Italy, all its units removed from the board, and a certain number of German units added to Northern Italy to reflect the fact that the Germans were the ones directing the fighting against the Allies at that point.

[crusaderiv]

Having the Vichy regime in the game doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for historical reasons.  Vichy played a negligible military role in the war and was completely occupied by Germany in 1942 anyway.  The terms of the armistice with Germany prevented the Vichy regime from producing anything other than infantry (at severely capped numbers).  The only French colonies of any importance that the Vichy regime managed to hold were the North African ones (sub-Saharan Africa, I believe, very quickly joined the Resistance), and those forces defected pretty quickly to the Allies after Operation Torch.

I don’t agree with you.
Fight occurs between Free freench-UK and Vichy.
Madagascar and Syria are good examples.
French fleet was also a stake between english and german.
You under estimated the Vichy-French presence.

Adding Vichy rules would give the regime significance in the game that it didn’t have during the war.  Of course, you could argue, who cares, it’s just a game, but isn’t historical accuracy the only reason anyone is talking about this in the first place?
Yes it’s only a game. But for some people accuracy and realism it’s important.

[crusaderiv]

But then if Japan attacks FIC, then all true neutrals will become pro-allied

Good question.
That’s why I introduced in my house rules.
Annexation and political influence.

[UN Spacy]

@rhesusman:

Having the Vichy regime in the game doesn’t make a lot of sense to me for historical reasons.  Vichy played a negligible military role in the war and was completely occupied by Germany in 1942 anyway.  The terms of the armistice with Germany prevented the Vichy regime from producing anything other than infantry (at severely capped numbers).  The only French colonies of any importance that the Vichy regime managed to hold were the North African ones (sub-Saharan Africa, I believe, very quickly joined the Resistance), and those forces defected pretty quickly to the Allies after Operation Torch.

Adding Vichy rules would give the regime significance in the game that it didn’t have during the war.  Of course, you could argue, who cares, it’s just a game, but isn’t historical accuracy the only reason anyone is talking about this in the first place?

What would make more sense (from a historical, if not necessarily gameplay perspective), would be for Italy to be eliminated after Allied capture of Sicily or Southern Italy, all its units removed from the board, and a certain number of German units added to Northern Italy to reflect the fact that the Germans were the ones directing the fighting against the Allies at that point.

Well, they didn’t join the “Resistance”. The Free French and French Resistance were two completely different entities.

[Flashman]

@crusaderiv:

But then if Japan attacks FIC, then all true neutrals will become pro-allied

Good question.
That’s why I introduced in my house rules.
Annexation and political influence.

Territories which become neutral as the result of a major power losing it’s capital wouldn’t be included in the “attack one attack all” rule.

Think of these tts as being in a state of chaos for a turn; anyone who can move in more units than the defenders can take over without a fight because the defenders can’t decide which side they’re on.  After this they will simply hold on to what they have against all comers until their own capital is liberated.

So, to use some historical examples:
After the fall of Paris, the UK will probably be able to move enough units into FEA to take it over and convert the defenders to Free French.  West Africa will be a little trickier, French North Africa is probably out of the question at this stage, while Madagascar will require an amphibious operation.
French Indochina will be an obvious target for Japanese intervention.
In Europe, Germany would probably target Normandy as well as Paris to prevent the Brits getting any ideas about taking it over on B1, but Southern France could be left alone for now; let the remaining French defend it themselves!
Only when the Allies land in French North Africa in enough force to be within striking distance of Marseilles will the Germans consider it prudent to send their own units into the area.

When the allies land in Southern Italy Germany can leave the Italians to defend the north of their country, but without any Italian ability to reinforce the area it’d be better to send in your own forces to take over before the neutral Italians can get organized or overpowered by the Allies.

[UN Spacy]

I don’t agree with you.
Fight occurs between Free freench-UK and Vichy.
Madagascar and Syria are good examples.

They were relatively minor skirmishes, which eventually resulted in half of the Vichy forces returning to France, and the other joining the Free French. The only real significant conflict between the Vichy forces and Allies were Operation Torch and Dakar.

French fleet was also a stake between english and german.

It was, which led to the British bombing the fleet stationed at Mers-el-Kébir. The Germans and Italians did not try to take the French fleet until 1942 at Toulon, in where the French scuttled the fleet there.

Again, the addition of Vichy rules are quite unnecessary, but there are those which really want historical accuracy, which is fine by me.  :roll: