The confusion seems to be in you’re holding back naval ships for naval bombardment. The advantage about scrambling planes is that it forces the attacker to commit all their naval ships regardless if they want to or not. That’s why it is sometimes wise to scramble in a losing battle if the enemy is relying on bombardment for victory. The easiest situation would be when Japan invades the Philippine islands. If Japan was so aggressive that all they brought was two infantry with two cruisers as example. I would scramble the fighter in that situation because while I will lose the sea battle, if you choose to invade the island after the battle, you’re doing it without naval support which gives my defending infantry a better chance at winning.
KGF - Stick a Landing!
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I suck at this game…especially as the allies. I spread myself too thin…often come across the Atlantic without enough transports or a good naval defense plan. Japan might be doing well, so I spend in the Pacific when it’s bad timing to affect Japan whereas I was just about to get some momentum going against Germany…anyways, I’m starting to be of the opinion that going after Germany first for several rounds is an ok strategy since it gives Russia time to build up massive troops stacks.
So, if you’re going to stick a landing that will stay and either of three options are available but only one will work, which one do you think is the best (pick just one)?
I think Norway is the best option. It takes the most money from Germany. Downside is that the US has to spend money on stuff like a factory…maybe an airbase/naval base.
I think S. France is the 2nd best option. It guarantees Italy loses an NO and continually threatens Rome. Also, if Germany wants to attack your fleet, often they can only do that with air only (no carrier/subs to soak hits). Downside of S. France is that it’s hard for the UK to join in the fun.
Normandy is in good position to send your transports back home…but doesn’t initially hurt Germany as much I think.
Please keep the discussion away from capturing Rome or the 1-2 Denmark - Berlin attack as better options. The poll / discussion is supposed to assume that the axis player is smart enough to defend against stuff like that…
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I’m inclined to agree that Norway is the best one. Downside is that it’s very likely to be a one way trip for your fleet. That’s probably the reason that Normandy is the most common landing site: there the airbase can defend any fleet and also you’re very close to UK troops which can reinforce your landing.
The upside of the French landing sites is that if you can defend your landing, you have an IC ready to go right away.
Upside of the one way trip is that you can take some Luftwaffe with you. The other good thing about Norway is that it’s very hard for Germany to attack it, unless they already have units in place.
So I guess it’s hard to give a definitive answer. In all cases, the best one is the one you can build units out of the easiest. Norway can be achieved the earliest but it also takes longer to reinforce significantly. Other problem is that you’re further from German factories so you can’t attack them easily.
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Norway is nice because it saps Germany of 8 IPCs (3 for the territory plus 5 for the NO), while also opening a sort of ‘back-door’ route into occupied Russia, but it’s harder to reinforce and build up a base in. If the Americans land on their turn then the British reinforce it that same turn, it could be all right. Certainly, having an American IC so close to Berlin will be very threatening for the Germans, and they will be forced to spend quite a bit of money on protecting themselves from bombing raids, bombing the American IC, or building transports, which is money they can’t afford to divert. However, Norway is just too remote to deliver a crushing blow to Germany.
Normandy is probably my personal preference, for a couple of reasons. One: free factory! Putting 3 tanks down every turn is definitely a big plus! It also serves as a major diversion for Germany, as Holland (which will leave West Germany exposed if in Allied hands), Paris, and Southern France (which will leave Italy exposed if in Allied hands), are all within American reach. The British are also in an ideal position to ferry units across the Channel. The one major issue I have with Normandy is making it last. It’s fairly obvious to the German and Italian players that you’re on the way, so they’ll have time to bulk up the West. But if you can put down a 3 tank build and get British reinforcements, you’re in a good position.
I don’t really like Southern France, because the Axis are just in such a good position to counterattack. The Italians can throw massive amounts of equipment at you, relieving the pressure on Germany. And speaking of Germany, a few tanks in Western Germany, Normandy, or Paris can bring an end to Southern France very quickly. Nevertheless, a landing in Southern France does have its advantages. It constitutes a first-rate emergency for Italy, costs them an NO, and again, ties down German IPCs.
So ultimately, Normandy is the best. As long as the British and Americans co-operate, the Allies will have a beachhead turning out plenty of tanks. Eventually, they can take Southern France and once they can afford to not use their IC anymore, Paris. Once Paris is liberated, Germany will be fighting a very uphill battle.
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Why aren’t we allowed to vote for Italy?
You hit S. France a couple of times with the US and then you hit N. Italy and S. Italy on the same turn with US and UK. You set it up so you can do it on back to back turns if necessary. The 2 navies merge in the same sea zone and it will take out Germany’s air for the rest of the game if they go after it. Rome can’t be liberated if you have both N. and S. on the same turn.
Standard move. Rarely been stopped no matter how good the Axis player is. KIF then KGS. The only question is whether Japan can win the game before you accomplish it.
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Anywhere in France will do.
Really! I’m being serious!
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Why aren’t we allowed to vote for Italy?
You hit S. France a couple of times with the US and then you hit N. Italy and S. Italy on the same turn with US and UK. You set it up so you can do it on back to back turns if necessary. The 2 navies merge in the same sea zone and it will take out Germany’s air for the rest of the game if they go after it. Rome can’t be liberated if you have both N. and S. on the same turn.
Standard move. Rarely been stopped no matter how good the Axis player is. KIF then KGS. The only question is whether Japan can win the game before you accomplish it.
That’s the way I wanted the poll. Supposed to be a poll/discussion on the allies returning to the continent. And besides, you just answered that your preference is S. France out of the 3 choices.
Of course the ultimate goal of capturing a capital like Rome is a follow up after getting the initial landing. And I wanted the discussion to assume that a capital won’t immediatley fall.
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Why aren’t we allowed to vote for Italy?
You hit S. France a couple of times with the US and then you hit N. Italy and S. Italy on the same turn with US and UK. You set it up so you can do it on back to back turns if necessary. The 2 navies merge in the same sea zone and it will take out Germany’s air for the rest of the game if they go after it. Rome can’t be liberated if you have both N. and S. on the same turn.
Standard move. Rarely been stopped no matter how good the Axis player is. KIF then KGS. The only question is whether Japan can win the game before you accomplish it.
Recently, I’ve take to buying tonnes of infantry as Italy. That does indeed stop the Italy landings.
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Why aren’t we allowed to vote for Italy?
You hit S. France a couple of times with the US and then you hit N. Italy and S. Italy on the same turn with US and UK. You set it up so you can do it on back to back turns if necessary. The 2 navies merge in the same sea zone and it will take out Germany’s air for the rest of the game if they go after it. Rome can’t be liberated if you have both N. and S. on the same turn.
Standard move. Rarely been stopped no matter how good the Axis player is. KIF then KGS. The only question is whether Japan can win the game before you accomplish it.
Recently, I’ve take to buying tonnes of infantry as Italy. That does indeed stop the Italy landings.
You do defend well in Europe and the Pacific board. I also don’t think Italy falls really easy; especially if Germany has a stack of fighters and mech in W. Germany that can go to S. Italy prior to the next Allies’ turn.
I would play a league game with you…but I’m not in your tier group. Anyways, when you finish some of your games and can take on another I’ll play you as allies with a bid you think fair…you’ve beat me every game we’ve played. Or is BM3 straight up more fair for both sides?
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I voted Norway because I think the key to KGF is getting Germany to fight someone other than Russia. While it is true that Norway doesn’t threaten Berlin immediately (and honestly neither does Normandy or Southern France) it has several big upsides.
1. You don’t lose a factory there when France is liberated.
2. It is out of reach of tanks produced in mainland factories (tanks in occupied Leningrad still take 2 turns to reach)
3. Fleet in SZ 112 are an immediate threat to Germany’s longevity by threatening landings all along the Western coast.
4. Occupying Norway allows Strategic Bombers to hit Berlin from London and protects them against a ground attack.Norway is too difficult for Germany to counterattack efficiently. Any strike requires 2 turns. It is the best place to stick an initial landing because it is the least likely to be repelled. Once Norway is secured it allows for a continuation of operations against Germany without risking getting stalled out by West Germany / Paris stacks.
Norway isn’t the game ending blow, but it is the beginning of the end for Germany if it becomes a point of resistance that cannot be beaten. A developed Norway gives the allies the options to win and critically diverts German attention the most due to its distance from a factory assuming Germany doesn’t invest in transports.
Even if Germany attacks the navy or builds transports and troops it will consume resources necessary to securing Moscow and Cairo.
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I am going to throw my hat into the ring.
I prefer landing in Normandy. To me, there is more upsides than just the IC you get. Landing there, you can protect the UK Fleet and allow them to build it up under the Protection of the American Fleet and a 3 Plane Scramble. The UK can also reinforce the US Landing almost straight away, if it has some transports. Normandy also touches France, Southern France, and Holland/Belgium. Another reason I like the Normandy is that it is 2 turns away from the Major IC’s of the Axis. You can build up on the Landing before a large force comes in and tries to smack you around.
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@Hunter:
I am going to throw my hat into the ring.
I prefer landing in Normandy. To me, there is more upsides than just the IC you get. Landing there, you can protect the UK Fleet and allow them to build it up under the Protection of the American Fleet and a 3 Plane Scramble. The UK can also reinforce the US Landing almost straight away, if it has some transports. Normandy also touches France, Southern France, and Holland/Belgium. Another reason I like the Normandy is that it is 2 turns away from the Major IC’s of the Axis. You can build up on the Landing before a large force comes in and tries to smack you around.
Norway is 2 turns away from tanks. Normandy can be hit by a tank purchase in Western Germany.
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@Hunter:
I am going to throw my hat into the ring.
I prefer landing in Normandy. To me, there is more upsides than just the IC you get. Landing there, you can protect the UK Fleet and allow them to build it up under the Protection of the American Fleet and a 3 Plane Scramble. The UK can also reinforce the US Landing almost straight away, if it has some transports. Normandy also touches France, Southern France, and Holland/Belgium. Another reason I like the Normandy is that it is 2 turns away from the Major IC’s of the Axis. You can build up on the Landing before a large force comes in and tries to smack you around.
Norway is 2 turns away from tanks. Normandy can be hit by a tank purchase in Western Germany.
You are right. I also like keeping my fleet, what good does it for the Allies if my Fleet is at the bottom of the ocean. Landing is a one time thing in Norway. I put money into my fleet, I kinda want it to live. I see the loss of the US fleet in that manner, like the loss of a German one before Sea Lion. You sunk a lot of money into the fleet just to watch it sink to the bottom. Norway is a bit too North for me. Norway was the best in 1st edition because the US could drop a Major there and push 10 tanks out a turn. This whole debate is interesting. Everyone has their preferences, and I will not argue with any of these options. All 3 have trade offs, it is just a matter of how much you are willing to sacrifice to get to your goal.
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Look at it from the German perspective:
Each requires Germany pay attention and hopefully pull back air units from the East and spend money.
France is easiest to defend for Germany. 9 units a round can be built in the 3 factories. Tanks or air in W. Germany are within range.
If bombing has taken away that option, W. Germany and N. Italy are still there.
And, in the end, the Allies have only taken 2-3 ipcs, no N.O.
Norway gives the Allies Scandinavia, will cost Germany 8 immediately and 10 the next turn once Finland goes, too, and requires a navy to retake, unless they’re using ground forces from Russia.
That means Norway is more expensive for Germany to lose and MUCH more expensive for Germany to retake.
Either is easily reinforce able via London, though, yes, Normandy is absurdly easy./assuming U.S./UK fleet is large enough to stay afloat after taking Norway.
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In most of my games, the Germans have 8+ Bombers sitting in Western Germany along with several subs sitting in SZ 126. So the 3 plane scramble is essential. To me, taking away a German NO is awesome. Sacking my fleet for the loss of 8 IPC’s at the minimum for the Germans isnt worth it. With 8+ Bombers, several subs and Misc. planes for the Germans is enough to ward me off of a landing in Norway. I would have to spend my money in Europe for the United States, that cant fly if Japan is going buck wild in the Pacific, which it usually is.
The Allies rely on reactionary play anyways. The Board should look different every game. The Allies should choose a landing spot accordingly. It just so happens that 8+ Bombers influences my decision.
Like I said, there are trade offs for each option. No one landing spot is perfect. It is a matter of the amount of sacrifice for the Allies to win the game.
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In the few games I’ve tried Norway, it was initially a money pit for the US having to buy an air base for scramble protection and sometimes a naval base. But I think its the quickest spot in IPCs to let Russia catch up on ground units. The logical next step of course is to then land somewhere else.
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This has been a very interesting thread. Normandy is such a good site for an allied landing that the Axis are normally on their guard for a landing there. I leave it French if I can. In one game, USA landed on Normandy in spite of it being French!
If the Axis are not prepared though, I agree with the others that Normandy is the preferred location. It does beg the question about the next step is if it can be held for a few turns. Obvious move is to push into Southern France. If that can be held also, the Axis are in real trouble with 6 US units being cranked out per turn but that is very unlikely unless Italy has no real income. Why doesn’t moving into Holland work out? Perhaps the major factory next door.
Southern France is nice if it can be pulled off, not least because maintaining the fleet means costing the Italians their control of the med NO and it also makes it easy to put in a few subs to SZ97 to kill Italy’s income. Bigger investment to get there, bigger reward if you can make it stick.
Norway is the least investment, but arguably the least reward, particularly if Germany has kept their transport or built another while you are on the way.
@Hunter:
In most of my games, the Germans have 8+ Bombers sitting in Western Germany along with several subs sitting in SZ 126.
SZ125? With that sort of force, the allies need a large fleet to fight and survive. You aren’t talking early game then. Perhaps after Moscow has fallen?
I would play a league game with you…but I’m not in your tier group. Anyways, when you finish some of your games and can take on another I’ll play you as allies with a bid you think fair…you’ve beat me every game we’ve played. Or is BM3 straight up more fair for both sides?
A lot of players are doing small bids for Axis in BM3. I’m happy to go again anyway.
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A lot of players are doing small bids for Axis in BM3. I’m happy to go again anyway.
I don’t think you need a small axis bid to beat me in BM3. I’d play you straight up as the Allies.
If you leave a small stack of undefended planes in s. France again, you can edit them back after I kill them.
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It is usually around round 4 or 5, Germany is always building Bombers and pushing a sub almost every turn. Its about 4 or 5 subs sitting there. Maybe more if the G1 Fleet attacks went really well for the Germans.
The IC for the US is essential. I would still land there too if it was still French.
Myself and another player, Corpo24 landed in Holland/Belgium as a distraction. We also had a minor UK force land in Normandy to draw units away. Granted it was the Oztea’s 1941 Setup, so the French had a transport. When we landed in those spots, the German player freaked out and build a ton of infantry and Italy took Normandy back before we smashed it with a Major US force and kept it for the rest of the game.
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@Hunter:
The IC for the US is essential. I would still land there too if it was still French.
Obviously not completely essential then if you are landing there in spite of it being French! No one can use the IC if it’s French unless Paris is liberated and actually buys some units.
As for 1sub+1bomber per turn for Germany, sounds like your group are playing Germany very differently to what I normally see and do.
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No no you are alle playing it wrong. The Allied invasion fleet should start from Gibraltar port, and project a threat to every landing spot. This fleet should also have a UK tranny with 2 French infantry, and another with 2 ANZAC infantry, and a UK Carrier with a French Fighter and an ANZAC Fighter. I would like to see the Axis defend against that, man. If you use the minors just to support the US landing, then you are using them wrong. They should secure your flanks, not stack as fodder. Obviously, with this strategy, Norway is out. Either Normandy or Southern France should be the main US landing spot, with separate UK, French and ANZAC landings in the adjacent territories or islands. Follow this advise and the Axis will never win again, man
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