Germany against the Netherlands; Japanese wiping the American navy

[A Former User]

Hey guys, so I have a couple questions regarding strategy for GW36/39.

1. How do you guys go about dealing with the Netherlands as Germany? In my group, Germany always bypasses attacking the Netherlands and just goes through Belgium or Alsace-Lorraine to get to Paris. This leads to the Dutch territories remaining neutral the entire game. If the Dutch have been attacked, all their possessions go to the CW, a total of 10 IPPs. By the time Japan is ready to go to war, the CW gets a couple turns receiving those IPPs without any real problems. How do you guys counter this? Am I waiting to long to attack the East Indies as Japan after Germany attacked the Netherlands?

2. My group in general is struggling to keep America in the game in the Pacific. Most games, the Japanese build up a strong navy even with their investment in taking over all of China. Japan usually has a fleet big enough, including a couple Yamato BBs, to destroy the American fleet with relative ease. My question is how do you guys play as America or the Allies in general to counter the Japanese?

[Rank Carcass]

1. For the first part regarding the Netherlands.
   From the games we have played:
   Best practice is for Germany to leave the Netherlands alone, until Japan is ready. This way nothing goes to the commonwealth since Dutch are neutral. When Japan can take the DEI then together with Germany taking the Dutch capital. This way Netherlands income is only 1 from South America. Usually we do this after China is Japanese, when the US is almost or at full income already. The early game for the axis is to take as much as possible as fast as possible, while limiting allies income for as long as you can.

2. This is a bit more difficult since the whole map can have many different setups. Typically we use the US and CW navies as canopeners for each other if possible. We also spread out the allied fleet so there are multiple targets that can counter attack each other, sometimes you can spread out the Japanese navy and destroy bits at a time. FEC and ANZAC should be pushing overland at the same time into China. Japan can’t compete for both the land and sea together. Give Japan 2 fronts so you can out spend them to defeat.

If the British fleet is doing ok in the Atlantic, send the US fleet through Panama into the Pacific as the Counter Attack for your destroyed fleet.

[A Former User]

How you said the Axis should handle the Dutch makes a lot of sense. Same thing for the Allied navy in the Pacific. Are we assuming that the CW navy has first dealt with the Italian navy? I figured once you take care of them, you can move a good portion of that fleet to the Pacific. I will try that out though because in most games, Japan is able to wipe out the American fleet and do just about whatever it wants in the Pacific. Makes for a very lopsided game in favor of the Axis.

[Munck]

In my opinion, Germany & Japan must attack Netherlands in the same turn.

Japan has a hard time fighting on 3 fronts: Mainland China, DEI & The Pacific against USA.

Global War is all about applying ‘pressure’ multiple places, attacking where your opponents are weak in any point in time. Of cause, Japan can win in any theatre - for example against the US. But then it leaves the backdoor open for KMT, Russia or another 3rd party. A good Allied player will force (lure) the Japanese main battle fleet “out of place”, and attack from another angle.

It is this game of applying pressure I find so enjoyable.

[Rank Carcass]

@KingKuba:

How you said the Axis should handle the Dutch makes a lot of sense. Same thing for the Allied navy in the Pacific. Are we assuming that the CW navy has first dealt with the Italian navy? I figured once you take care of them, you can move a good portion of that fleet to the Pacific. I will try that out though because in most games, Japan is able to wipe out the American fleet and do just about whatever it wants in the Pacific. Makes for a very lopsided game in favor of the Axis.

As for the Italian navy, I leave them trapped in the Mediterranean. Italy is small beans compared to Japan. Moving CW navy out to reinforce India or Africa combined with the FEC navy here, just remember to use blockers for the amphibious assault on Calcutta, in range of this fleet. Sometimes this draws the Japanese out and allows the US fleet to move at Japanese targets. From Aden they can use the naval base to attack in the Mediterranean or Calcutta area. Also use transport from South African factory to assist in either location as required. ANZAC/ US bait navy in the Marshall Islands etc. You may need to sacrifice CW or US navy so the other can pound it down.
Can draw the Japanese navy out and the Aden navy in the back door. Either way navy must be matched with land attacks. If Japan loses its mainland income and/or DEI its not building all those ships.

Munck has it right. This game is all about divide and conquer tactics, bait for counter attacks. Out maneuver and project threat to multiple locations. I enjoy the 1936 setup most, because this can be more influencing with unit build selection and placement.

[A Former User]

Interesting thoughts guys. Looks like I will need to figure out some ways to play this pressure game. Doing so with Russia and China against Japan seems a little difficult, but yeah America and the CW can definitely play that game well. How do you apply pressure from every angle though? I feel like I do not have enough forces for that but maybe I am going about it wrong.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Thanks for the tip. I was going to attack the Netherlands this morning on my way to Paris but I took your advice and bent Belgium over instead. It makes perfect sense.

I’m not sure if it’s a good plan or not but I’m piling up some American ships on the build chart without finishing their production (getting them to within one space from mobilizing). I have built some in the Pacific but I’m holding these ones back to save them from the Japanese first strike. Is this a good plan or have I been sniffing too much paint lately with my renovations and assembling/painting my armies?

[Munck]

@KingKuba:

How do you apply pressure from every angle though?

Here are some examples:

With Russia:
Take Mongolia, and perhaps reenforce Vladivostok with a few units and relocate a small factory from the European theatre.
This forces Japan to keep some troops in Manchuoku. (+ there is a Victory Point on the line. End-of-game who has the most units on Japans/Russias their shared border gets a point.).

With China:
LL some offensive units to KMT. Take a jab at the Japanese once in a while. Every time the Japanese loose a unit, a new one has to be built. These IPP can not be used to building ships.

Applying pressure can also be just the threat of attacking.

[Munck]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

I’m not sure if it’s a good plan or not but I’m piling up some American ships on the build chart without finishing their production (getting them to within one space from mobilizing). I have built some in the Pacific but I’m holding these ones back to save them from the Japanese first strike. Is this a good plan or have I been sniffing too much paint lately with my renovations and assembling/painting my armies?

I don’t think the Japanese first strike capability is a problem for the US fleet in San Francisco.
Without telling to much, remember that the Japanese can only use it one time - to attack one territory.
The Allied player need to move his fleet around taking this into consideration.

Old A&A strategies like stacking a huge fleet as the US and protecting it with blockers takes a while to “un-learn”  :-)

On the positive side, your strategy gives you another option. You can LL your ships to the UK with short notice. We usually do that to reenforce the UK fleet if Germany has been too aggressive in the Atlantic.

[Rank Carcass]

@Munck:

@GeneralHandGrenade:

I’m not sure if it’s a good plan or not but I’m piling up some American ships on the build chart without finishing their production (getting them to within one space from mobilizing). I have built some in the Pacific but I’m holding these ones back to save them from the Japanese first strike. Is this a good plan or have I been sniffing too much paint lately with my renovations and assembling/painting my armies?

I don’t think the Japanese first strike capability is not a problem for the US fleet in San Francisco.
Without telling to much, remember that the Japanese can only use it one time - to attack one territory.
The Allied player need to move his fleet around taking this into consideration.

Old A&A strategies like stacking a huge fleet as the US and protecting it with blockers takes a while to “un-learn”  :-)

On the positive side, your strategy gives you another option. You can LL your ships to the UK with short notice. We usually do that to reenforce the UK fleet if Germany has been too aggressive in the Atlantic.

This also gives the US fleet flexibility to place these ships at any of its shipyards. Can use them on both sides if needed.
Japan surprise strike is only on its first attack. This may be only one of a land or sea zone. Often the US would move Japan out of position, so either the British fleet or Calcutta if possible are good alternatives for the surprise attack. Usually our winning Japanese games leave the US out of the war as long as possible, smacking down China and the FEC first, then turning on the US next.

[A Former User]

Thanks for the suggestions Munck, I will definitely try these out next time I am playing as the Soviet Union and China. Do you guys pile up all your Chinese units, spread them out, or a little of both? I want to try and find a balance so I can pressure the Japanese without leaving my units to vulnerable to getting wiped out by Japanese troops.

[Rank Carcass]

@KingKuba:

Thanks for the suggestions Munck, I will definitely try these out next time I am playing as the Soviet Union and China. Do you guys pile up all your Chinese units, spread them out, or a little of both? I want to try and find a balance so I can pressure the Japanese without leaving my units to vulnerable to getting wiped out by Japanese troops.

I was playing the KMT a few days ago KingKuba. With the air force and coastal bombardment Japan can bring in, its very difficult as China to hold them back. Unless Japan switches focus to somewhere else. To delay the inevitable slaughter of China I withdrew all forces but militia from the coast, into a defensive line both and sout through CCP. Except for the territory next to Hong Kong I like to keep that one also. Then after Japan landed in China, I counter attacked their week spots. Stacked the crap out of yunnan to keep the Burma road open. sent lend lease artillery and AAA  from CW, French  and US each turn, that China pairs with cavalry. This doesn’t stop Japan but it costs them some land units they can’t use on FEC or spend building a fleet. If Japan shows any weakness attack it, but retreat if its strong. Separate the Japanese by spreading your stacks, so they need to spread out and hold Chinese land with troops. Then when possible reinforce China with FEC troops, while harassing its fleet.

China and FEC need to fight Japan like guerilla warfare, never fight even odds, keep moving back. Delay the Japanese until US can help you put.

Hope this helps

[Munck]

@KingKuba:

Thanks for the suggestions Munck, I will definitely try these out next time I am playing as the Soviet Union and China. Do you guys pile up all your Chinese units, spread them out, or a little of both? I want to try and find a balance so I can pressure the Japanese without leaving my units to vulnerable to getting wiped out by Japanese troops.

Remember, KMT & US moves/attacks together. So you can use US planes in combination with your (hopefully) large number of weak KMT land units. I’ll leave you to ponder how exactly you can make it happen  8-)

(this of cause require that the US is at war)

[Chris_Henry]

First, I just want to add something for you to consider in the future. Doesn’t pertain to your current game, but something to think about if you ever end up playing with the Netherlands Fights Back Expansion.

If using that expansion, the Dutch are their own playable power, and their IPP’s don’t go to the CW. While true, they would get the money in exile still if you attack the Netherlands before Japan attacks the DEI, it’s not as strong as combining that income with the CW, which is obviously your concern here.

So again, it’s more of a reminder of potential strategy change if playing with that expansion in the future!  :-)

To address your actual question, you of course raise a good point. That’s a fair sum of cash going to the CW early on if the Japanese cannot strike for a couple of turns in the DEI.

I would say avoiding the Netherlands early on could definitely be a good route to go.

One thing I would say though, and this could be unrealistic, but you never know I guess, is to watch out for the UK deciding to attack the Netherlands themselves. Yes, the 10 IPP penalty for attacking a minor is steep. But if your the UK and you’re worried about the Dutch not being attacked for, say 3 turns after France falls, maybe you decide to take that risk and attack the Netherlands, and whatever DEI islands you can reach. You might end up recouping that money you lost in declaring war right away.

This would also give the UK a beachhead on mainland Europe. With the negatives of amphibious assaults, the Axis of course wouldn’t want this. A lot would have to be in favor of the Allies for that to actually hold past one turn, but circumstances being applied, it could potentially not be good.

Again, not saying this is best practice by any stretch. Just saying it would be something to look out for. You’d have to see how the game is playing out of course. The Allies could notice that Japan is realistically multiple turns away from considering an attack on the DEI, and could maybe find this worth while.

Probably too far fetched, I don’t necessarily think I would do this as the Allies. It’s more of a lesson in paying attention to what your opponent is doing, or could do I guess!

[A Former User]

That sounds like a good way to go about playing the KMT Rank Carcass. The people in my group usually do not lend-lease to KMT because they find it to be a waste of time. Even though the KMT may still end up getting beat, as long as you do not get horrible rolls, you will be able to force the Japanese player to expend resources replacing them. I think that this is the part the people in my group do not understand or just do not care much about.

I will definitely be pondering how to get the KMT/US to do some good joint strikes. I will probably just end up sending a small air force in order to get some firepower, I would not mind getting a US Marine over there either haha.

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

[Chris_Henry]

@KingKuba:

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

Haha like I said, 100% hypothetical. It’s definitely in the realm of could happen, but not at all likely too. I like to flip the script on some of these and think “what’s even in the realm of possibility?”. I like to try and think what the opponent might do, or what I might do if I was in their shoes.

Agreed on other posts re the Japanese fleet though. Try and spread them thin by hitting in multiple theaters. South Pacific, Central Pacific, China, Southeast Asia, Soviet Border Clashes. Because you’re right, if you let the Japanese sit back and build up a navy, it’ll become out of control, and they can hack at the Allies piecemeal if they catch them on the back foot. Trying to maintain some initiative in more than one of the theaters above is probably the best way to combat this. Wait until the right time for a major blow when they’re unsupported or spread thin enough to get a sound victory!

[Rank Carcass]

@Chris_Henry:

@KingKuba:

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

Haha like I said, 100% hypothetical. It’s definitely in the realm of could happen, but not at all likely too. I like to flip the script on some of these and think “what’s even in the realm of possibility?”. I like to try and think what the opponent might do, or what I might do if I was in their shoes.

I  love this kinda stuff. This type of play while rare, can be a really entertaining twist. CCP or KMT leaving China. It’s all situational like attacking Spain or Portugal for a US naval base, costs 10$ make the French pay most of that or share the cost. This isn’t really any different Chris good points.

[Munck]

@KingKuba:

The people in my group usually do not lend-lease to KMT because they find it to be a waste of time. Even though the KMT may still end up getting beat, as long as you do not get horrible rolls, you will be able to force the Japanese player to expend resources replacing them. I think that this is the part the people in my group do not understand or just do not care much about.

If this is the case, you have a good chance of winning the game  :mrgreen:

One thing is the “harassment” of the Japanese, as discussed. Another important thing is the Victory Points. Take a look and see which are “doable” for each Alliance. The tipping point may well be found in China - for all three  :-)

When it comes to the Chinese theatre, expert A&A players are probably worst off at playing GW, because of obsolete knowledge.

[Chris_Henry]

@Rank:

@Chris_Henry:

@KingKuba:

That is a wild idea, Chris, in my opinion, Germany will have to be very weak on the western front to try that. If they move most of their units to fight the Soviets maybe that could be something to try. I’ll keep that idea in my back pocket though.

Haha like I said, 100% hypothetical. It’s definitely in the realm of could happen, but not at all likely too. I like to flip the script on some of these and think “what’s even in the realm of possibility?”. I like to try and think what the opponent might do, or what I might do if I was in their shoes.

I  love this kinda stuff. This type of play while rare, can be a really entertaining twist. CCP or KMT leaving China. It’s all situational like attacking Spain or Portugal for a US naval base, costs 10$ make the French pay most of that or share the cost. This isn’t really any different Chris good points.

Thanks Rank, I’m right there with you! Exactly, it’s ALL situational. There are a lot of different things that may present themselves. I think we all forget sometimes that the Allies have the ability to attack the little guys too, if they really wanted to. If I see an opening that I think will benefit me, you bet I’m going to seriously consider it, despite how far fetched it may seem!

[A Former User]

I like the ideas of throwing in some twists in strategies every now and then. Keeps things interesting. I will consider attacking minor countries for strategic reasons like Portugal, the Azores islands, and a couple of Portuguese territories in southern Africa.

Chris, I saw the question you posted about Germany using the Lightning War ability against the Soviets on the global war game website. I actually have considered doing that, using the medium armor, mechanized infantry, and armored cars. I considered going to Russia’s major factories rather than Moscow so they can not build much except militia. Granted I would need to attack at least 3 different territories which is very difficult, but it is doable. Especially if you do not sign the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and take eastern Poland and maybe even Lithuania for yourself. Of course you leave the West exposed to France and the CW which sucks but it is just a fun thought. I have considered doing it because I want to see what happens and I want the Soviets and the West get involved in a war. Japan can even side with the Allies in order to attack the Soviets I think? Correct me if I wrong, but I could’ve sworn I read that somewhere.