Sealion defense after J1 DOW?

[eames57]

I suppose this question does presuppose that America used its turn to prepare for the possibility of needing to liberate  London, like buying a couple of transports and a carrier and bringing a couple ships from SanFran to the Mexican Gulf.

[zooooma]

@eames57:

I suppose this question does presuppose that America used its turn to prepare for the possibility of needing to liberate  London, like buying a couple of transports and a carrier and bringing a couple ships from SanFran to the Mexican Gulf.

I don’t think so.
I believe the scenario is England’s first turn after a Japanese DoW.  England wants to know to what extent they should prepare homeland defense.

I am assuming that this is an OBB game (no bidding)?

[eames57]

Yup.  OOB

[zooooma]

Sorry I haven’t voted - but I haven’t played 2nd edition yet so I don’t have an informed opinion.

At the very least I would make sure Germany can’t get in too cheaply.  Those extra German IPCs + the loss of a British build should come at a cost; even if the US can liberate right away.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Yes you have to buy the infantry. If you don’t then Germany can take out London with lots of units to spare making it far more difficult to liberate. Those extra infantry will be killing tanks and possibly planes if the Germans don’t dice the UK. Also, if you don’t place infantry there, then Germany can take London with a half-hearted transport buy and a strategic bombing raid on G2 leaving them cash to take on Russia at the same time instead of an overwhelming assault on London.

[Witt]

If no fleet was bought, I would build an IC for Egypt and Ft amd 2 Inf for England.
If a CV, Sub and DD were bought , I would buy Ft  and 6 Inf for England .
If two or three TTs were bought and no DD , I  Would get a Sub, Ft and 4 Inf .
Germany and Italy  can still make an American landing in Morocco impossible . I would not presume America was my rescuer, just yet.

[PainState]

UK does not need to mess around on Turn 1.

UK London ALWAYS purchases 6 INF / 1 FTR or 9 INF on turn 1. Why? this forces Germany to make a hard choice on G2. Do they take their 70IPC and make 10 TRS? Japan went j1 so USA is in the war now. Which makes it even more difficult to pull off Sea Lion.

IF Japan goes J1, does Germany on G2 even contemplate building 10 TRS?

Sea Lion is a G3 no latter than a G4 Attack. Germany is not at war with Russia and it is a ALL IN on UK.

The biggest reason Germany cannot perform Sea Lion is because of Japan. Japan wants to J1 or J2, Germany wants them to go J4. Japan though is not as strong if they perform a j4.  This is the push and pull dynamic the Axis have to deal with in Turn 1-4.

If the plan is J1 then the plan for Germany is G2 on Russia and go all in to crush Russia and India.

If the plan is sea lion then the plan for Japan is a J4 and set up for a massive money Island grab/ possibly set up for a push against ANZAC from the Caroline Islands.

[taamvan]

If a J1 tempts a KJF, then it means Germany will have an easier time in its backfield.

If Germany saves its money, or buys 1-2TTs, the pure defensive move (9 men or 6+1) is advised.

You could tweak it to be 2 fighters 2 artillery etc because those units are more valuable later on, but they still add to what you have on hand.

What you don’t want to do is wait to build up and spending the money all over the map, because he can change it up, Stratbomb you and then overwhelm you because you can only produce 10 defenders per turn.  This should make you think about putting some of the “boots on the ground” out early, so you have more flexibility later on.  I recommend a few artillery UK1-2 if you are playing the long game.

[Caesar-Seriona]

The problem with Sea Lion is that it is usually turn 2 that hints what UK should buy. I usually buy a minor factory for Egypt and some infantry for London or if Home Fleet is destroyed, I would rebuild in Canada. However my usual first German buy is an Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, and Submarine and I usually don’t go for Sea Lion because the justification is that I now knocked out UK but I am weak against USSR and US is going to liberate that island.

[eames57]

@GeneralHandGrenade:

Yes you have to buy the infantry. If you don’t then Germany can take out London with lots of units to spare making it far more difficult to liberate. Those extra infantry will be killing tanks and possibly planes if the Germans don’t dice the UK. Also, if you don’t place infantry there, then Germany can take London with a half-hearted transport buy and a strategic bombing raid on G2 leaving them cash to take on Russia at the same time instead of an overwhelming assault on London.

Maybe my math is bad, but that’s not how I see it.  I was presuming America would prepare for a sealion possibility with round 1 purchases that look something like 2 carriers, 2 transports, and maybe a sub, and by staging its SZ 10 carrier and transport (plus whatever ships it would need) over to the GoM (ready to turn back to Pacific if sealion isnt threatened.)

Germany would still need a full commitment with 10 transports bought and even then probably wouldn’t hold it.  With UK losing in 106, doing taranto, only buying one 1 fig/no inf in London, and only able to afford let’s say 8 inf after sbr’s on turn 2, Germany should have all its tanks and a couple other ground troops survive.

But America can still come in with 8 ground troops, 5 fig, 1 tac, and up to 7 bombers if it needs to (depending on if it can force the channel with its ships alone.  (6 of those bombers depend on UK still owning Scotland, but if Germany diverts a transport from the London landing into Scotland, your 7 planes should still be more than enough.)

[eames57]

@wittmann:

If no fleet was bought, I would build an IC for Egypt and Ft amd 2 Inf for England.
If a CV, Sub and DD were bought , I would buy Ft  and 6 Inf for England .
If two or three TTs were bought and no DD , I  Would get a Sub, Ft and 4 Inf .
Germany and Italy  can still make an American landing in Morocco impossible . I would not presume America was my rescuer, just yet.

I think 2 inf, 1 fig sounds pretty reasonable because it defends a little without losing much mideast iniative.  But I would argue that if America projects enough force towards the atlantic, that UK buy would work even if Germany bought a cv, sub, and dd.

Why does America need to land in Morocco?  Are you worried about Luftwaffe violating neutrals’ neutrality to strafe troops in gibraltar?  And why can’t they come from Quebec?

I like the sub purchase as a way to force Germany to spend money on a ship if it wants to commit.

[eames57]

I agree that throughout the whole game, UK definitely needs to keep track at all times of Germany’s invasion potential.  But this question is about balancing costs/benefits.  Previous threads have discussed the value of sealion.  The consensus seems to be that it mires Germany in a gridlock with Russia, but that can be a useful sacrifice if it makes America spend too much time and money to liberate UK, thus giving Japan the game.  But if America can liberate UK in the same turn, then Germany sacrificed its eastern initiative with little to show for it.  So the question isnt how does UK prevent itself from getting conquered at all costs.  The question is what is the absolute minimum UK needs to spend to make sealion not worth it, thus allowing it to project its force out sooner.

Let me phrase this another way.  6 inf, 1 ftr is usually enough to deter sealion on J3 dow.  So why would UK still need to spend the same amount after a J1 dow?

[PainState]

USA should always strive to take Morocco as their opening move into Europe.

The main reason is because it sits on SZ91, the key SZ on the euro map. Air power can threaten Italy navy and is one turn from flying to London. It is the perfect staging area for USA to project power.

USA can go east and take Algeria and from that spot can STRAT bomb Italy factories.

Morocco/Gibraltur is the main staging area for all USA forces In Europe.

It also opens up during late mid game the possibility of going into Spain and sitting on the front door of W. Europe.

[PainState]

In my experience a J1 does not provoke a KJF response from the USA.

USA does not usually commit one side or the other until around USA4 after a J1.

Not saying USA is sitting around doing nothing. Iam saying the focus of the USA can not be determined until around USA4 or so.

[eames57]

@PainState:

In my experience a J1 does not provoke a KJF response from the USA.

USA does not usually commit one side or the other until around USA4 after a J1.

Not saying USA is sitting around doing nothing. Iam saying the focus of the USA can not be determined until around USA4 or so.

So what you’re saying is if America doesnt go KJF, it’s free to respond to a sealion?  And if it can respond earlier than usual, does this affect your UK1 builds?

I understand the value of SZ 91, but after a successful sealion, allied mission changes from establishing a continental beachhead to liberating the isles.  In response to wittman’s post about axis preventing America from liberating UK by stacking in Morocco, i offered gibraltar and quebec as alternatives.

[taamvan]

the problem with the liberation idea is that they already blew up one of your teams, took its money, and stopped it from buying for a turn.

This can never be the Allies plan.  They have to stop Germany from attempting it, by deterring it, regardless of what the Axis gameplan overall is.  If UK buys the 6+1, leave 2 fighters back from Taranto (send 1), and ship in 1 man and 1 armor from Canada, Germany sours to the idea of SL, quick, no matter what its original idea was.

Watch where Germany positions its land troops.  They have to be pre-staged for sealion.  They cant head east.

[GeneralHandGrenade]

Place the 6 inf and 1 fighter on UK1, say your prayers, eat your vitamins. Those units will serve you well all game if they manage to live past G3. If you mess around you will get burned by a decent player. Your factory in the middle east or Egypt will do you no good without an economy. All you will be doing is buying the Axis a factory.

Depending upon what Germany buys G2 is how you decide to allocate your units after that. If Germany goes after Russia then you get your factory UK2. If they build for Sealion then you place on London UK2.

[PainState]

lets look at it this way.

Germany/Italy has to take Cairo OR London + take out Russia.

lets just say UK decides the best plan is to not allow Germany to Sea Lion UK.

They do not scramble any FTR on G1. They do not do the Taranto raid and leave all air power in the UK.

Well, if it makes Germany balk on G2, decide to hell with that, goes all in on Russia, no real threat on London any more. Is that not a great plan for the Allies on the Europe map?

UK/USA focus on Africa in the early game to secure Cairo as the Moscow crush is in effect.

Iam not a fan of UK/USA sending everything they can to Moscow. I prefer sending everything to Cairo/middle east and deny Germany from winning on the Euro map.

The upside of this plan is IF the USA/UK have not lost focus, they can take Rome which is a VC. So, now Germany has to take out Cairo and then retake Rome to win the game if they do accomplish their goal of taking out Russia.

[prodigenius]

Besides liberation, one of the other reasons J1 and SL don’t mix well is that the US can get a fighter and 1+ bombers over to London before G3 easily.  With the amount of fodder on London the fighter alone will probably take out 2-3 German aircraft.

[PainState]

@zergxies:

Besides liberation, one of the other reasons J1 and SL don’t mix well is that the US can get a fighter and 1+ bombers over to London before G3 easily.� � With the amount of fodder on London the fighter alone will probably take out 2-3 German aircraft.

Usually on a J1 Attack that is against UK/ANZAC and not USA.

This is a key point.

IF Japan J1’s against only UK/ANZAC then USA is still neutral until the start of their production phase, which they can then declare war. This is very important because the USA cannot non combat troops/air power forward into UK territory until they are officially at war…that happens on USA1 during production. Which mean USA units cannot enter UK territories unit USA2 non combat phase.

IF that is the scenario, USA can not arrive in UK until USA3, which will be to late if there is a G3 Sea Lion in effect.

Once again I will stress this point.

Japan/Germany have this tug and pull on the first 2 turns. Japan is the key nation when it comes to Sea Lion and the USA response.

Japan goes J1 and declares war on the USA…Sea Lion is off the table, that is the bottom line. If you are the Germany player you need to dust off that G2 against Russia plan of attack.

*** Foot Note ***

Let me clarify and be clear for new players on this point.

IF japan declares war on the USA on Turn 1. What that means is two fold.

#1 USA can now non combat move into any allied country on both the Euro/Pacific map. USA declares war on the Euro Axis powers at the start of the USA1 production phase.

#2 USA Production ramps up to full war status on USA1.

USA can get 1 FTR and 1 STR bomber into England on USA 2 for the FTR.

USA builds 3 FTRS on USA1.

USA2 3 FTRS fly to Gibraltur.

USA3 3 FTRS are in London.

You have now forced Germany to go into London on a G3 invasion or it is all over.

*** Side note ***

I hope your Japan partner is not a friend because some German players will come unglued on a J1 against USA.

Just letting you know.

:lol: 8-) :-D :evil: