Sea Lion Discussion

[Dashofpepper]

Hey folks!

The search function isn’t so useful, and I scrolled through 7 pages looking for any recent discussion on sea lion before making this, so if there is already a discussion like this, I apologize.

I’d like to know your opinion on Sea Lion.  My G1 leads off with a Carrier purchase and nothing else (based on a guide I’m following by SubmersedElk), which leaves a threat of Sea Lion.

1.  What is the normal Britain first turn purchase with those $28?  Does a threatened Sea Lion make them buy 9 infantry instead?  How big of a difference does that make?
2.  Assuming a G2 purchase of 10-11 transports, Britain would have two turns to purchase reinforcements…presumably 9 infantry both turns?  Can 11 infantry, whatever tanks, mechs, and artillery can be pulled out of France, and the Luftwaffe remaining after the SZ110 and SZ111 attacks realistically punch through 22 defending infantry?
3.  What turn can Russia declare war on Germany?  I can never remember if its 3 or 4.

Mostly I’d like your opinions on whether Sea Lion is a mistake.  I don’t know what sort of percentage chances of success would happen because I’ve never tried it, but if the London takeover isn’t a sure thing, then I wouldn’t want to risk it and have nothing to fight Russia with…but if it is a sure thing if the G1 sea zone battles went well, just a tactical consideration to ponder against the eastern front, I’d like thoughts on that too.

I’ve mostly been playing against the AI until this Play by Forum that I’m trying with ShadowHAwk, but in all my games, Germany doing a full Russian offensive with Italy as a can-opener for German aircraft to move up a zone can’t get to Russia and take it before the US gets into Europe.

[Ichabod]

Just try it out yourself. This is something you’ll have to learn yourself.

For me, I love executing Sea Lion, but my criteria are different than other persons. I never plan for it on G1 and or even purchase units for it. Several things need to occur on turn 1 and then maybe I’ll consider it.

[Dashofpepper]

@Ichabod:

Just try it out yourself. This is something you’ll have to learn yourself.

For me, I love executing Sea Lion, but my criteria are different than other persons. I never plan for it on G1 and or even purchase units for it. Several things need to occur on turn 1 and then maybe I’ll consider it.

Several things did happen on G1 of the game I’m in.  I won SZ106, and while Germany always wins SZ110 and SZ111 in my experience, I took less casualties than usual; even had a sub left over when I retreated to 112; killed everything except a plane in two turns.  Usually I consolidate whatever air force I have left and start pushing east, but what is the point of a G1 carrier buy every game to threaten Sea Lion unless you actually use it when opportunity arises?

[Caesar-Seriona]

It’s hard to say because it really depends on what UK does, most people say to stop Sea Lion, just build the classic 10 infantry and two fighters as UK to stop it. However I say that the best thing Germany should do without wasting money if Sea Lion is to build the Graf Zepplin, destroyer, and submarine. That can be a neutral build because Germany does need some navy for defense.

However, my Sea Lion build is usually carrier, destroyer, submarine on turn 1.
All infantry turn 2.
All transports turn 3.

And then make sure to position all your aircraft and navy so that they can reach London.

And it goes without saying that you need to either destroy the UK fleet or at least scare it off so you can actually land on the island.

[Amalec]

I’ve found the best way to threaten/do Sealion is to sink the British navy as usual and then to simply not spend your turn 1 income.

On turn 2, if the UK hasn’t built significant land/air assets in London then you can build 10-14 transports, position/purchase your invasion troops on the coasts and optionally strategic bomb the London factory. Without significant UK1 investment in London’s defense, London is almost certain to fall. UK just can’t produce enough on UK2 to stand a real chance of defending London against you. You may need to purchase a carrier to protect your transports from UK2.

If they do invest in defending London on UK1, then you simply do Russia as usual - it won’t really cost you anything, since you can’t really push ahead of that G2 60+ IPC purchase anyway when you’re heading into Russia - and you’ve forced the UK into building units that they won’t get any real use out of for several turns instead of doing whatever they’d have liked to do.

[simon33]

Buying a CV G1 weakens Barbarossa by 4 artillery that could reach Moscow G6. No experienced players do this buy. That should tell you about the strength of it.

[Dashofpepper]

@simon33:

Buying a CV G1 weakens Barbarossa by 4 artillery that could reach Moscow G6. No experienced players do this buy. That should tell you about the strength of it.

Experienced players buy two bombers and a sub on turn 1 right?  What is barbarossa and how does a carrier on turn 1 weaken it by 4 artillery?

[simon33]

@Dashofpepper:

@simon33:

Buying a CV G1 weakens Barbarossa by 4 artillery that could reach Moscow G6. No experienced players do this buy. That should tell you about the strength of it.

Experienced players buy two bombers and a sub on turn 1 right?  What is barbarossa and how does a carrier on turn 1 weaken it by 4 artillery?

Barbarossa is the German invasion of USSR.

A CV costs 16 IPC. 4 artillery also costs 16IPC. If you buy the former, you can’t buy the later with those same 16IPC.

Some experienced players do the 2 bomber 1 sub buy. This is a good buy if you want to threaten sea lion and Barbarossa. If you don’t mind tipping your hand, a lot of players would buy 6 artillery 2 infantry. This is a good buy if you are happy to allow the German BB to die. I personally like the 1sub + 6art and retreat the damaged BB back to SZ112 from SZ111.

[Dashofpepper]

With a G1 Carrier buy, and a strategic retreat from SZ111, that leaves the Germans with a navy consisting of a Battleship, a Cruiser, a transport, a loaded aircraft carrier, and possibly 1-2 subs depending on how combat resolved.

I don’t want to waste a battleship and see it die if I don’t have to.  I also want to be able to project force, which that medium sized navy can do somewhat.

[simon33]

Yes well to what end?

If you aren’t going sea lion, that CV is probably tying down 5 planes - 2 on it plus 3 for the scramble.

Anyway, I think I’ve given you a lot of detail as to why it isn’t a good buy. If you want to buy it anyway, that is your affair.

[wheatbeer]

While I agree a carrier buy isn’t optimal … it’s also probably not going to be the major factor if you end up losing.

I mix up my buy all the time just for the sake of variety :lol:

Some fun buys to test:
  Nothing (as Amalec noted, this has several advantages)
  4 artillery, save 14 IPC (similar principle to buying nothing, but more Barbarossa friendly)
  3 fighters
  1 carrier, 2 artillery, 2 infantry (or 3 artillery, no infantry)

[variance]

@Dashofpepper:

Britain would have two turns to purchase reinforcements…presumably 9 infantry both turns?

Not it you bomb them hard on round 2.

I think the only really bad choices for G1 build are these:
all infantry
industrial complex

[GeneralHandGrenade]

I would only do Sealion if all the cards lined up on Germany’s first turn and/or if UK did anything other than spend their entire purchase in London UK1. Like varience said, the only purchases that don’t help you pull it off are all infantry or a factory for G1.

Regardless of what UK purchases the first 2 turns, you could probably successfully take London turn 3 if you committed everything you had to use and you didn’t get diced hard. The problem is that Russia will then be a factor in the game for not having any resources committed to it the first 3 turns. The US could take back London with some effort but it’s much harder to take back Moscow if it is lost. In a perfect world you will beat the snot out of both of them but if you only have 1 to choose from, Moscow is the better bet in the long run.

[Cow]

I like the bomber buy g1. You could still do the old naval g1 buys… I am not a fan but whatever works for you. I don’t like carrier buys for germany

[Caesar-Seriona]

@Cow:

I like the bomber buy g1. You could still do the old naval g1 buys… I am not a fan but whatever works for you. I don’t like carrier buys for germany

The whole point of the carrier build is that you can take the fresh navy after you beat UK out and then have the ability to then attack US and/or support Italy in the med.

[simon33]

@Caesar:

@Cow:

I like the bomber buy g1. You could still do the old naval g1 buys… I am not a fan but whatever works for you. I don’t like carrier buys for germany

The whole point of the carrier build is that you can take the fresh navy after you beat UK out and then have the ability to then attack US and/or support Italy in the med.

Germany doesn’t want to fight USA at all if it can manage that. It definitely doesn’t want to leave its own shores to fight USA.

[taamvan]

If Germany buys 2 transports, then UK should buy 6 infantry and 1 fighter.  Sending all 3 fighters to Taranto is probably overkill esp. because of how badly the mechanics work when all you have left is 2 fig 1 CV (since they just retreat and you die).      If you save 1, you have 3, which is plenty to keep fortress UK alive, 2 is also fine.

After you buy this, on G2, you usually get bombed, and again on G3, so in our current game I have 20 damage, 1 armor 1 mech 5 AAA and 13-16 men or something like that?  UK is hard to take, though with some money, Germany could re-ramp that threat up–instead he headed to med to do an Africa Gambit.      Once you have those 25 or so “2s” on the UK, its not a cakewalk to take anymore, he needs to focus all his effort and money and ships to keep the threat engaged, which wastes his time.

Unless Italy can come in, even a 2-wave Sea Lion doesn’t pull odds against the turtle.  If he continues to build up G3+ rather than coming into novogrod by sea or moving to SZ 91 (both places, he can STILL sea lion you from, as well as do other things) then you have to continue to repair and add more turtling.

If Germany sets up for a true, G3 Seelowe, it is just an odds battle and UK has 2 entire buys 61 minus damage to get ready.    Even with every plane available, the odds aren’t in his favor—he has to throw everything at you just to kill the AAA then come in and hit with another round of troops on G4, its all his resources, Russia is rampaunt.

The odds are pretty well playtested–if Germany is quite lucky no matter what UK did, he will win, with 1 tank and a few planes alive.    But he’s dead long game as USA and USSR demolish him.

On the other hand, the odds are uninviting as UK is doing the optimal response, so he usually has to go to some Plan B (attack Russia by sea or take Gibraltar) which is clearly sub-optimal.

[simon33]

@ShadowHAwk:

Depends it adds 2 extra air units to a gibraltar attack.

If you want to do that, why wouldn’t Italy take Morocco? Then you aren’t limited to two air units. Unless UK consolidate in SZ92 rather than Taranto, of course.

[Leatherneckinlv]

If you are doing Sea Lion, plan on defending Denmark….make sure it doesn’t fall by the US strike and have a counter strike ready

Sometimes you may have to take Scotland 1st on turn 3 and strike London on turn 4 so make sure your transport loads are in place. My thoughts are you need 10 transports at the minimum

Turn 2 is vital to convoy and SBR UK…if he did Toranto turn 1…great…then I will get London 100% of the time

[Cow]

OK. One of the older meta strategy was a later japan dow. G1 you buy carrier 2x transport or dd sub. Next up you take gibraltar, because usa is not at war and it is cake.  Then germany goes in to the medit sea and has middle east play.