Got it. That’s what I thought. Thanks Panther
The Red Tigers
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Cow,
I agree. I just wish I followed that mindset in a current game. I know my opponent is going to keep hammering Japan.
Next game, I’m going to go for India or break…at least that way Japan will have secured a good NO. Forget China, yeah!.
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Take and hold shan state, from there you can blast india with everything. all air and transport. you can do this as early as j3.
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Cow has the wise plan, as usual. Let China get out of control since it can’t go anywhere. India will fall if you focus on it. That means that the US must keep spending in the Pacific or ANZAC will fall next. Meanwhile Moscow collapses on G6. There is no way that the UK is sufficiently strong at that point to prevent the Axis from slowly pushing their way into Egypt: that combined push of Japan from the East and the Germans from the North cannot be halted that early in the match against a competent adversary.
If an opponent is overly defensive, I generally look for an economic victory. Usually the Axis will win in the long run if their income exceeds that of the Allies. There are some footnotes to that statement, but it generally runs true. Get to the oilfields for the Germans and hold the money islands for the Japanese. Moscow and India will inevitably fall unless the Allies have a sufficiently strong counterattack.
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The problem there is on J1, you don’t know if the Allies are going to go full KJF or not. If the Allies do not go full KJF, then going all-in on Calcutta is not optimum play. It’s better to expand your income and choke them out slowly so that they fall on J5 or later as opposed to J3.
If you do J1 without taking Philippines, you are jumping the gun and folding to the pressure of the combined Allied assault before the pressure has even been applied. I would either do J1 as normal with a contingency for an all-in on Calcutta beginning on J2, or I would simply do a J2. At that point taking Philippines or not is an option that would depend on the all-in decision.
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Larry, there is a particular person I play who I do know is going to do an all out KJF. Japan is trashed by rounds 5-6 every game. I have to win on the Europe board.
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So if you already know the person is going to KJF, then the India crush becomes a good play for Japan, and you can consider bypassing the Philippines on J1. I’m not sure how much good it will do having those ships one space to the west, and I’d also like to point out that you can just send two subs and some planes to take out the Philippines fleet and then noncom the DD and CV wherever you want. Surviving subs can hit his convoys.
A better rationale for bypassing the Philippines is simply that you want to conserve your ground troops and concentrate your force where it matters.
Another strategy to consider is the G1/J4 where you throw everything at Moscow (Italy builds straight mechs and tanks too). You can build an airbase on Chahar on turn 2 and bomb Moscow with the Japanese on turn 3 if the Germans have a stack on Ukraine or W. Ukraine.
In either case you are giving up on the hope of Japan becoming an economic force and concentrating your beginning force where it can do some good.
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The hard counter to J4 is nothing but bombers USA. Literally nothing Germany can do when 16 bombers are in Russia before you get to attack and those bombers literally attack into reinforcements. All you got to do is make sure Russia doesn’t all on Germany’s 5th turn. Because USA gets there on USA 5.
That is the best way to deal with the Russia cheese strategy, do the bomber cheese back. You will win 99% of the time as the allies.
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Don’t believe me? Play against yourself and just buy bombers and a sub + dd here n there for the pacific. Yes even 10 bombers makes taking Russia really difficult. Bomb nov, bomb ukraine, attack anything that tries to skip past Russia, attack units built on nov or ukraine. Yeah you can make Russia hold out for a freaking long time.
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In fact if you plan on sending Russia to take Ethiopia / iraq… I do recommend 8 bombers flying into Russia to make up for the forces Russia sends down there, that way you hold Russia G5-G7, that way Russia doesn’t fall before it can spend the income it generated from National Objectives down there. This is the most consistent strategy.
Everything that involves boats and oceans typically results in Germany ignoring it and letting Italy ground troops reclaim / turtle while Germany blasts Russia. With the 2 bomber 1 sub G1 buy meta… You will need at least a stack of 10-12 units on Egypt (Germany has 14 air and can blast it so Italy can take egpyt… also Germany wants to kill UK air because it defends Russia against a G6 all in anyway).
So yeah there you go. if you need usa to have an immediate impact on Europe, bombers are the best. Everything else Germany can ignore / not care about. Germany literally doesn’t care about Norway if it can get Russia and west germany / France is really easy for Germany to take back, Germany can make 10 units, can build air off the minors it took from Russia, USA needs how many boats to shuffle 10 units a round into west germany? UK can do it with 5 boats, but UK is the only one capable of making a minor in Iran to reinforce Russia so how are you making fighters to defend russia while dropping infantry? Exactly.
USA bombers are tried and true. Played a thousand games, seen it all. If I am sitting down and I don’t want to screw around, I am buying some bombers, 4-12 depending on my mood / what is going down. I am holding Russia, I am making bank. GG
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And yet no one seems to have figured out how to turn those strategies back on you and win as the Allies.
I have nowhere near the level of experience that you do, but I’ve analyzed and tested the board quite thoroughly and everything you keep tossing out here on the forums is clearly insightful. The fact that your ideas keep evolving shows me that you know what you’re talking about too. I wonder why your ideas haven’t taken hold more? I didn’t see any U.S. player at YG’s tournament this weekend cranking out U.S. bombers.
As to the suggestions I made, I know they’re sub-optimal, but I was trying to think what the best moves for Japan would be from the beginning if you knew 100% that the Allies were doing a full KJF. Egypt crush is another one to consider.
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I am usually the axis and I usually dow J1 barring any kind of crazy Russia play in the Pacific. USA is extremely flexible in terms of buy / strategy. If you are going to make a play with russia that dedicates some units to africa, you better be prepared to make up for it quickly, because if Russia is dead and the UK pacific is dead and Iraq belongs to Russia… that is game over for Egypt and the VC win handedly goes the axis way in Europe.
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Right, my ideas for the Allies all hinge on defending Moscow at all costs. I am thinking that 5 American bombers plus most of Britain’s production will be enough but I haven’t tested it thoroughly to really say that with any confidence.
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Ichabod has experience against my USA bombers. :)
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I have never sent additional Russian units to the Pacific, however after reading this thread I think I may give it a go.
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Our group used the bomber death move with great success. It definitely makes J2 a lot worse for Germany. When 10 bombers show up on US3 to England we found that Germany does a real quick look back. This works very effectively with a large transport build by UK. Moving all US troops to Nova Scotia USA4 load up on UK transports and begin to build your own loaded army. You end up with one going to Gibraltar and one going to London. Instant reinforcements when you are ready to rock on to Europe.
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I changed my mind, China is indeed a sideshow, and it will be ignored by experienced players that see all Allies getting into China.
Also if Russia wants to challenge Germany it needs all its airforce and initial units. The 18 siberians stay in the North and can be reinforced eventually or attack Japan for some extra time.
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China probably isn’t worth Russia’s best units. When Japan is running wild, China is just pushed to the ropes and they cant accomplish much, except to further preoccupy Japan.
On the other hand, the ideas about saving some money up, or making a defensive node in China (Yunnan) aren’t bad either. If you can threaten to do these things, you may force Japan’s hand as far as placement goes as they try to predict for where you are going to form up. Sacrificing the Chinese infantry for nothing is a big loss in this game just like losing the Russian 20. You can force Japan to choose to attack India or finish China off but perhaps he cannot do both.
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Japan has the ultimate goal of diminishing and or destroying both the Chinese, and UK armies in the pacific. Japan will never successfully take mainland US (unless of course you are playing an inexperienced player), and occasionally they will make a push for Sydney, although they don’t pose a very serious threat. Japan will make most of its income from the “Money Islands” and mainland Asia. The sacking of Calcutta places Japan in a great strategic field. By eliminating the UK in the pacific, Japan can then focus on its navy, and protecting its assets, while expanding its expeditions to either Hawaii, or Sydney.
Now China plays an extremely important role during this entire process, as China can delay or even prevent a Japanese mainland conquest. China as everyone knows plays the game through gorilla warfare tactics. Eventually, this cannot be sustained, as they lose the Burma road, and cannot collect enough IPCs to effectively defend the Japanese advance. Japan will either decide to crush the Chinese forces, or bypass them (while holding on to the Yunnan territory). China however has another option as outlined in this thread. Russia can effectively defend China in the Yunnan territory, resulting in a flow of Chinese units continuously turn by turn. Even assuming that China has only three IPCs, with a 6 bonus, they can place 3 units every turn. Russia can afford to use a few of its units, assuming there is a large number of Allied aircraft landing there to support it. It has also been pointed out that the Russian aircraft can make it back to Russia by turn 6 giving Yunnan 2 turn of additional defense. This gives China enough time to build a significant amount of infantry.
Now I say this because Yunnan is a vital territory for both Japanese and Allied forces in mainland Asia. If Japan retains control of it, it has a forwarding base for its units to make a push in any direction for the conquest of mainland Asia. It also chokes China from IPCs which eventually dwindles the already small army. If the allies retain control, China can begin to grow, and effectively keep Japan from taking many mainland IPCs. It also provides a territory for the UK to land planes, and to make an effective push for coastal territories.
Obviously using Russian forces in this way will not work every time (as you cannot predict the rolls of large battles). I will probably use this strategy once in a blue moon to change things up. The last thing I want to touch on, is that once these Russian units move into Japan on turn 1, they will be declaring war on Japan. This puts the Russian 20 in an interesting situation. They are most effectively utilized by defending. Make Japan attack them. Japan knows that the Mongolian pact is a bust, ensuring that they wont spawn 6 additional Russian units in the north. Even if you lose all 20 units, you are delaying an inland push by the Japanese for at least 1 turn, and you should* kill about 6-7 units assuming your rolls fall within the odds.
Of course this is just my opinion, and like I said, I will use this tactic once in a while. It should be effective enough to stop an ill-prepared Japanese.
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I suppose that’s the question; are you changing the game R1 by putting your 2 best planes there? Yes, but Japan will still attack, because of what’s at stake. So you didn’t change much. R2 you have some different choices, probably better ones (stack everything you built into YUNNAN and THEN stack the UK and Russia onto to that), but still, you have to make something of the fact that Japan didn’t take over that very small and insignificant area of the board.
Some of your other comments about declaring war imply that there is something else at stake for the Russian 20–the diplomatic declaration of war changes nothing, so it doesn’t incentivize or dissuade Japan from attacking (or not) in any way. The Mongolian rule is implicated only when you attack a territory adjacent to Yunnan Rus/Jap, so if that didn’t occur, the declaration itself changes nothing (it just allows you to put Russians in the 12-15 Chinese territories, that’s all)
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I think you are overlooking the importance of Yunnan. I did make the mistake of not clarifying that the Russian tank and mech along with 3 planes would move into Yunnan on turn 2. These 5 units along with additional Chinese units, and a small UK force would be able to hold Yunnan even against a large mass of planes. If China is allowed to consistently spawn a solid number of units, they become uncontrollable for Japan. The great thing is, the Russian planes, and UK planes that are in the Pacific can reach Calcutta for defense, Yunnan for defense, and then within 2 turns, Russia for defense when or if needed.
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