How to deal with Allied beach head in Norway?

[frood]

Hey gang.

Here’s the scenario: The allies have amassed a significant force in Norway, and it’s about to move into Karelia because Germany had to pull out. Should Germany:

a) Start stacking everything into Eastern Europe, to try to defend Germany
b) Start moving Germany’s stack toward Russia, to draw the stack away from Germany, and have a standoff farther east than west (more territory for Germany this way?)

What else would you want to consider in making this decision? In my game, the Germans never made any headway in Africa, and Japan is just starting to control Yakut / Sinkiang / India.

[axis_roll]

@Frood:

Hey gang.

Here’s the scenario: The allies have amassed a significant force in Norway, and it’s about to move into Karelia because Germany had to pull out. Should Germany:

a) Start stacking everything into Eastern Europe, to try to defend Germany
b) Start moving Germany’s stack toward Russia, to draw the stack away from Germany, and have a standoff farther east than west (more territory for Germany this way?)

What else would you want to consider in making this decision? In my game, the Germans never made any headway in Africa, and Japan is just starting to control Yakut / Sinkiang / India.

How soon can Japan threaten Moscow?  If it’s soon and with enough units, it might be good to put the squeeze on Moscow.

If not, try to dead zone Karelia.

If not, turtle up a bit with Germany (EEU as you suggested) and let Japan do the heavy lifting.

[Guest]

I concur.

[Lucifer]

If Germany can trade Kalia, and stack EE, this might work, or stacking Ukr, and trading EE.
Germany can’t stop this forever, then allies are not playing well.
As Germany I would worry about the 3 ipc tt’s and the 2’s.

[newpaintbrush]

@Frood:

Here’s the scenario: The allies have amassed a significant force in Norway, and it’s about to move into Karelia because Germany had to pull out. Should Germany:

a) Start stacking everything into Eastern Europe, to try to defend Germany

If the Allies have a stack in Norway, then there are probably at least 4 UK transports and 3 US transports able to transport units to Europe.  (Another 3 US transports are likely at E. Canada shuttling units to London).  If the Germans can disrupt the Allied transports by using the German Baltic fleet and/or German air, then Eastern Europe is fine; the Allies can even be pushed out of Karelia.  If the Germans cannot disrupt Allied shipping, then in most games Eastern Europe cannot hold, considering the incoming mass of Allied units.  In brief, I believe that in most games the Germans will not be able to hold Eastern Europe.

b) Start moving Germany’s stack toward Russia, to draw the stack away from Germany, and have a standoff farther east than west (more territory for Germany this way?)

There is no standoff in the east.  Once Germany’s forces are split, Germany or Japan must capture Moscow.  When Karelia falls, the Allies can proceed to Archangel or Eastern Europe (either way, receiving reinforcements from the Allied Atlantic fleet).

If the Allies proceed to Archangel, then the Germans are free to move through Eastern Europe (but the Allies can reinforce Moscow next turn).

If the Allies proceed to Eastern Europe, Germany must soon stand on its own without the eastern German stack.  If the Germans cannot move through Eastern Europe (which they cannot because of the Allied forces there), then they must attack West Russia/Caucasus to have a chance at Russia.  Assuming Karelia is still lost (a good chance of that), then the eastern German stack must eventually move to West Russia and/or Caucasus - but that is too far from Eastern Europe for any German infantry in that eastern stack to threaten the Allied forces.

What else would you want to consider in making this decision? In my game, the Germans never made any headway in Africa, and Japan is just starting to control Yakut / Sinkiang / India.

1.  Do the Axis need to crack Moscow soon?  This depends on the board situation.  If the Axis have a greater income than the Allies, and the Allied Atlantic/Pacific fleets can be held off, the Axis do not need Moscow soon.

2.  If the Axis need Moscow soon, are the Germans definitely needed to crack Moscow?  If the answer is yes, then Germany has to go for Moscow.  Since it’s a given now that the Axis have bad board position, the Axis will definitely lose if the Axis don’t get Moscow.

3.  If the Germans stall the Allies in Europe, can Japan handle Moscow on its own?  If Germany retreats, then is Japan strong enough to crack Moscow?  The answer to this is often “no”, because if the Allies have landed in Karelia, then they can go to Archangel then Moscow, possibly giving up their offensive in Europe, but if the Axis have bad board position, the Allies can stall until their economic advantage becomes overwhelming.

4.  Will the Germans even be ABLE to stall the Allies in Europe?  If Japan CAN crack Moscow alone, and all Germany has to do is keep the Allies from reinforcing, the Germans have a far different strategy than heading towards Moscow.  The Germans will not want to bulk units on Moscow’s doorstep, but close to Germany - close enough that German reinforcements will reach the front line quickly, but NOT so close that the Allies can make a run to Moscow while the Germans try to catch up.  Far easier said than done, though.

[Romulus]

IMHO German should stay in EE, stacking units there and dead zoning the Karelia in order to conserve EE and hitting hard Allied units marching in Arkangelsk and then in Moscow.

I prefer to deploy the fig in WE, Germany and in EE and use them to hit hard the Allied in Karelia with inf and fig to take the territory and avoiding allied to go toward Moscow.
Alternatively the Karelia may be strafed, for 1 or 2 round of battle and then retreating, leaving the minimum possible of allied force there. Then the aircraft may retreat to WE, GER and EE.

I know that this leave the task to conquer Moscow all to the Japanese, but stacking EE with German seems to me the best way for helping Japan, dealing with US/UK on the ground in Karelia, and giving more time to Japan for stacking troop near Moscow.

Moving German Army in Ukraine do seem to me a risky move.

[trihero]

I’m not sure you really have an option. Where would you go if you wanted to go towards Russia? Likely Ukraine is massively occupied or has a massive strikeforce ready, so your option is Belorussia? I guess you could go there for 2 IPCS.

[DarthMaximus]

Depending on the Axis positioning, I’d argue for a German Lurch and abondoning of WE.

If Germany is sufficiently strong enough to hold WE and EE while maintaining both Kar and Ukr as deadzones, then great, keep Kar deadzoned and continue your build up (assuming you are still earning something from Afr) and wait for Japan.

But if it is clear you cannot prevent the Allied move to Kar, you need to pull out of WE and shift everything East (or increase your EE stack).  Done at the right time this should do a few things for the Axis:

1)  Keeps Berlin heavily defended so arm can stay in EE
2)  Prevents the Allies from moving to Kar for a few more turns
3)  Allows you to trade WE with your superior airforce and pretty much forces either of the Allies to send an inf or two to capture WE, otherwise Germany gets 6 ipc with no defending units present
4)  If the Allies land heavy in WE you should either (a) be able to smash them with well over 20 inf, a few rt, and all your arm/planes (b) successfully seperated the UK and US from Russia

The Allies combined can hold off Japan, but if Japan is a 45-50 ipc Monster it becomes hard for Russia to hold off Japan all by herself esp if Germany had been trading with Russia for the first 4-5 rounds and weakened her offensive power.

[frood]

At present, Russia has minimal forces in Ukr and Cauc, so moving into Ukr. is an option. The question is, do I move everything in?

[General_D.Fox]

I’d say move everything into the Ukraine. That way you create more pressure on Russia, and you are closer for Japan to land their fighters on your stack to back you up.  Then you just keep adding to that stack while either rebuilding up the EE stack or trading it. Japan should be fairly close to helping you out in either hitting Russia or saving your butt.

[Crazy Ivan]

I agree with D.Fox. Keep the pressure posed at Russia, but stay positioned to crack back on EE with an assault from Germany if the Allies go heavy into EE. If you can crush them, and reinforce your remnants with Japanese fighters and an AA gun you can deliver them a serious blow that will take them several turns to recover from. Turns that Russia will really sweat as japan builds up on their doorstep. Be sure to defend Germany well in the meantime.
  Good luck.

[Jennifer]

Why not go to W. Russia and stack there and E. Europe?  You can add to the E. Europe stack and threaten Moscow directly.

[Guest]

Moving to WR invites a heavier counter by Russia, allowing them to use Moscow based INF against the German stack that otherwise could not reach the Germans.

[frood]

Yeah, Ukraine is better for Germany that WRus, b/c WRus can get hammered from Caucasus and Russia, both of which probably have a lot of Russian units. Plus, the Inf in Ukraine can strike EE if the Allies land there.

[Nix]

This is the time when Germany should start building Infs,and basically only infs…  MAybe throw in a couple of figs.

Make sure JApan saves the day before Germany falls.

Make sure they can´t ship 20 units into Germany for a 1-2 strike…

So i would say “turtle”, consider to pull back everything in EE to Germany if you can´t hold both germany and eastern europe then move out in force next round.

[seth4god]

@ncscswitch:

Moving to WR invites a heavier counter by Russia, allowing them to use Moscow based INF against the German stack that otherwise could not reach the Germans.

Depending on the situation, this may actually be a good thing. If Japan is knocking on Moscow’s door but isn’t strong enough to take it yet, a bunch of Ruskie inf moving to WR can be a good thing. Even if all Russia is a strafing move, if you can get enough hits on defense you can make it that much easier for Japan to take the capitol in another turn or two, especially if Russia accidentally takes WR when all they wanted/needed was a round or two of strafing. This works really well if you have two strong stacks to the east and west of Russia, you can really put Stalin between a rock and a hard place. If Russia goes after Japan, he leaves himself vulnerable to the Ger panzers. If he goes after the German stack than Japan can march in and hoist up the rising sun. If he does neither, you than have a good opportunity for the 1-2 punch. Ger forces in WR also effectively cut off any allied reinforcements and you’re not vulnerable to any seaborne surprise. Before this move can be contemplated, you have to be aware of exactly what you can do on defense vs a russian attack and Japan has to have a decent sized force stacking in Nov. It might not be available, but if it’s there it can be a pretty smart play if you do it right.

[Romulus]

But it takes two turns to arrive in WR. So first step is always Ukraine, being Belorussia an inferior choices. The final destination of the Gemran Army moving west is Moscow, passing for WR or Caucasus, depending on the situation. So it is not a different proposal from going to Ukraine, is a possible step after that move.

The problem that I see is that meanwhile Allies could invade Karelia and then EE.
Or, moving Karelia and Arcangelsk, being ready to counterattack in Moscow if it falls.
Moving German main army East implies redisposition of German Fig. further East, for being useful.

I thing that the German may efficiently focus on EE dead zoning Karelia and trading it every turn. If Allied come out in force, strafing them for at least delay their action. This should give to the Japanese all the needed time for conquering Moscow and for relieving Germany.