Games W/O National Objectives

@squirecam:

Anyway, its a moot point, since escorts/interceptors pretty much solve the bombing problem in a no-tech/no-obj game.

Yes, escorts make SBR unusable  :|

@Funcioneta:

@squirecam:

Anyway, its a moot point, since escorts/interceptors pretty much solve the bombing problem in a no-tech/no-obj game.

Yes, escorts make SBR unusable  :|

No, not really.

Lets take 1942. USA has 3 bombers (and three expected fighters) for its first turn. USA can buy 2 fighters (20) and a bomber (12).

Germany cant have a fleet, protect Germany with fighters, protect the Italy fleet, and protect Rome from bombing.

Whatever the Axis cant protect, you attack.

Once the fleets are gone, If Germany keeps most of its fighters in Germany, you Bomb Italy (while easily preventing bombing of UK/USSR as well).

Sooner or later your fighter screen will be too much for Germany to prevent.

What you cant do is merely send in your bombers without any worry whatsoever. That would never happened anymore in real life. In 1942-43, Unescorted bombers took so many casualties that the USA stopped bombing until sufficient fighter screens could help.

Bombers are too powerful without this rule. If you want air superiority, you have to earn it.

I’ll go right into the main issue here, balance…. :evil:

Allies are favored in both 41 and 42, but it’s not impossible for axis to win w/o a bid, I tried an allied CA strat, and an allied BB strat, did not work, but I think the most important reasons that I lost a couple of games with this setting is that I did not play the conservative strats, same overall strats as in Revised.

I think it’s probable that the allied bias is at the same level, or maybe a little bit less than in Revised.

@squirecam:

Once the fleets are gone, If Germany keeps most of its fighters in Germany, you Bomb Italy (while easily preventing bombing of UK/USSR as well).

What you cant do is merely send in your bombers without any worry whatsoever. That would never happened anymore in real life. In 1942-43, Unescorted bombers took so many casualties that the USA stopped bombing until sufficient fighter screens could help.

Bombers are too powerful without this rule. If you want air superiority, you have to earn it.

I agree with the last two sentences. You make a valid point with air superiority

However, I have my doubts about the protection of USSR ICs because Japan can easily do the same that USA (and has more income). However, my main dout with this issue is aa gun system: it’s too much they make a shoot against all aircraft making the SBR (even the scorts), because the defender can simply choose not send defending escorts (soviets cannot risk their figs) and make suffer attacking figs the aa gun fire anyway. And I think the bomber is shooted separate from figs anyway.

With a proper fix in aa gun dinamyc, escort rules could work

@Funcioneta:

… However, my main dout with this issue is aa gun system: it’s too much they make a shoot against all aircraft making the SBR (even the scorts), because the defender can simply choose not send defending escorts (soviets cannot risk their figs) and make suffer attacking figs the aa gun fire anyway. And I think the bomber is shooted separate from figs anyway.

With a proper fix in aa gun dinamyc, escort rules could work

That’s what we play in our FTF group:

Escort rule but the AAA shots are not taken against escorting ftrs.  Works pretty well.  With the ftr subjected to AAA fire, it was TOO costly to do any SBRs, and that eliminated them totally from the game.  Too much of a drastic change, in our gaming groups opinion.

@Funcioneta:

@squirecam:

Once the fleets are gone, If Germany keeps most of its fighters in Germany, you Bomb Italy (while easily preventing bombing of UK/USSR as well).

What you cant do is merely send in your bombers without any worry whatsoever. That would never happened anymore in real life. In 1942-43, Unescorted bombers took so many casualties that the USA stopped bombing until sufficient fighter screens could help.

Bombers are too powerful without this rule. If you want air superiority, you have to earn it.

I agree with the last two sentences. You make a valid point with air superiority

However, I have my doubts about the protection of USSR ICs because Japan can easily do the same that USA (and has more income). However, my main dout with this issue is aa gun system: it’s too much they make a shoot against all aircraft making the SBR (even the scorts), because the defender can simply choose not send defending escorts (soviets cannot risk their figs) and make suffer attacking figs the aa gun fire anyway. And I think the bomber is shooted separate from figs anyway.

With a proper fix in aa gun dinamyc, escort rules could work

1. Remember, we are without obj, so there is no “penalty” for Russia having allied fighters stationed in Moscow/Caucus.

2. To get “maximum” protection, germany would have to leave its 5 fighters in Germany. Not on a fleet. Not stationed in Lenningrad for forward attacks. The more limited movement of German fighters is also a hinderance.

3. Given that bombers cost LESS and AA guns MORE than in revised, I think its certainly fair that AA guns shoot at escorts. They no longer get to shoot at any planes that just fly over. There has to be some better benefit for increasing their cost.

Otherwise, you would have to go back to previous rules. Make Bombers 15 again, AA 5, give them back their abilities, and limit bombing damage as in Revised.

the problem is the sequence of the escort rule:

The AAA fire happens and THEN the defender gets to decide to go up or not.

Too big of an advantage for the defender.

@axis_roll:

the problem is the sequence of the escort rule:

The AAA fire happens and THEN the defender gets to decide to go up or not.

Too big of an advantage for the defender.

That is not correct:

Fighter Escorts and Interceptors: Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.

After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units….

UK decides to bring 4 fighters and 3 bombers to attack Germany. Germany has 3 fighters stationed in Germany.

Germany must decide before any dice are rolled how many fighters they will defend with.

I stand corrected.  Apologies for misleading anyone with my misinformation.

Thanks for the clarification as well as posting the correct rule
FYI this is listed at:  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah/article/ah20081212

Fighter Escorts and Interceptors

Fighters can participate in strategic bombing raids. Attacking fighters may escort and protect the bombers, and they can originate from any territory, range permitting. Any or all defending fighters based in a territory that is strategically bombed can participate in the defense of the industrial complex. The number of fighters that will defend is decided after the attacker’s Combat Movement phase is completed and before the Combat phase begins.

After antiaircraft fire is resolved against the attacking air units, if there are any defending fighters an air battle occurs between the attacking and defending air units. This combat is resolved in the same way as a normal combat, with a few exceptions. The fighters have an attack value of 1 (2 if the attacker has the Jet Power research breakthrough) and a defense value of 2, and the bombers have no attack value. In addition, the combat lasts for only one round. After the battle, any surviving bombers proceed to carry out the raid as normal.

Fighters participating as either an escort or a defender cannot participate in other battles during that turn. Defending interceptors must return to their original territory. If that territory is captured, the fighters may move one space to land in a friendly territory or on a friendly aircraft carrier. This movement occurs after all of the attacker’s combats have been resolved and before the attacker’s Noncombat Move phase begins. If no such landing space is available, the fighters are lost.

@squirecam:

@Frontovik:

yeah, it makes a radical change for axis
see, with NO’s, axis need to kill russia (most of the cases)
without NO’s, axis need to keept russia from killing them :-)

41 is impossible without NO’s, and '42 is not certain.

Is this because of the allied bombing? Or income? Or because Germany lacks the amount of troops it has in 42?

I think its the bombing that unbalances the game. Without that, its much more fair.

well, we don’t use bombing so much
it’s just the troops, and the fact that all 3 allies have each about the same cash as italy and germany. Japan can advance pretty well, but also with 3 tanks less each round

@axis_roll:

That’s what we play in our FTF group:

Escort rule but the AAA shots are not taken against escorting ftrs.  Works pretty well.  With the ftr subjected to AAA fire, it was TOO costly to do any SBRs, and that eliminated them totally from the game.  Too much of a drastic change, in our gaming groups opinion.

I like this one

@questioneer:

Played 2 games with the Smorey FTF rules last night against an experienced player.

In the 1st game, Russia took all three front territories- Belo, EUkr and Ukr.  However, they really paid for it because Germany came reeling back.  German naval successes really helped though (these G1 navy battles are the diceyest things in the game- win them and you have a chance, lose them and life is difficult for Axis).  Moscow threatened by stack round 3 or 4- game over- forfeit.  Tech- Russia (bad choice)- got increased production- useless by that time, US- long range aircraft- nasty tech, Japan- super subs- it semi-countered US’s LRA.

1-0 Questioneer

In the 2nd game, I was Allies.  As Russia, I only went after 2 of the three majors- Ukraine and EUkraine.  I evacuated Karelia with AA to Arc and built all inf.  Moved all Inf west from Siberia.  Japan did its normal damage in the east with an IC in Manchuria and later in Sumatra (E Ind).

As Allies I went a KGF, with a small navy in the Pacific swooping down to stack Hawaii and then swooping down to Australia just to be a distraction- indirectly worked.  By round 3 I was on Africa and had a good shuck route going there and threatening France also.  With early German naval successes, Axis went full force towards Russia.

Game came down to a stack battle between Germany and a Russian stack with some Allied planes.  Although the punch count was close- slight Allied advantage, Russia won with 5tnks and allied planes left.  Axis had nothing behind the force to back up except for a few Italian units- game won in 3 rounds by forfeit after that.  No tech was won- only Japan tried it.

2-0 Questioneer

I defintely, believe one should take the Allies here and give the bid to the Axis.  By the way- the bid was $4 to the Axis in both games.  I still like playing with National Objectives- it gives Axis a more balanced chance.  Playing with these tourny rules, I think Axis will lose against experienced Allied players most of the time.

Of course, I will play more practice games with this format.

So did both your games ended in rounds 3-4 ??

@questioneer:

Yes, by round 4 technically.

I’ve always been of the belief that if games are ending early, either its a particularly bad dice outcome, or the other side is not playing very well.

Questions:

What did each of you buy as Germany?

When you were allies, did he attack you, or vice versa?

It will be a while until we come close to the same feeling for (un)balance in AA50 w/o NOs as in Revised.

My guess is a unit bid same level as Revised or even lower. At least there should be consensus that allies are favored in both scenarios.

And people should have a minimum of common sense…. :roll:

If we are to discuss the balance w/o NOs, or any other setting, if someone happens to believe that axis will win 40% of no bids no tech games in Revised, they are delusional. My premise for my statement is: 1vs1 online, live game, experienced players. If they have delusions related to Revised, they will probably have delusions related to AA50 also.

Now, if it is 2vs2/2vs3 or beer and pretzels something, the allied advantage may not be excessive. Axis may win well over 10% w/o any bids.

As DM said in another thread, there is a difference between 1vs1 online and f2f boardgame local playgroups, even if it is experienced players in both settings.

And players seem to prefer the 41 +NO for some strange reason… :-D :-) it’s also my personal favorite.