@Cmdr:
No, let’s not go screwin up a perfectly good game with bids. :P
Its a very good game yes, but it’s not perfectly balanced. I have yet to loose as axis with NOs against allies w/o bids.
I’m with Danger Mouse on this one, I think this assumes some poor Russian movements or play.
That said it is a nice threat, but I’m wondering if a more subtle approach works just as well or maybe better?
Germany can still try to take/hold Epl in rd 2 and Ita can still open the door for a German blitz to Moscow, but if it isn’t an overwhelming threat maybe you can steal Moscow with an attack of 5-6 armor 1-3 planes vs. 5-8 units.
I can see this as sort of the equivalent to a G2 sealion in Revised. You might sneak a win every here and there but I think the more exprienced players will always be wary if/when Ger gets within blitzing distance to Mos.
The good thing, unlike sea lion where you need ships, is Germany doesn’t really have to go out of its way to put up this threat. “Normal” game action could makes this a possiblity even if you buy something generic in rd 1 and 2 like 7 inf, 2 arm and 2 bom, 8 inf.
The last two games I played (w/o NO, no tech), Germany was able to take Moscow on Turn 3.
G1:
Purchase: 6 tanks
Combat:
Attack Egypt with Bomber
Clear British fleet except BB and Transport in SZ 2
Take Ukraine with 3 inf, 4 tanks, rt
Take East Poland with 3 inf, 2 tanks, rt
Take Baltic States with 2 inf, rt, CA shot, fighter
NCM:
Move 1 inf from Finland to Norway
After G1, the Germans will be poised against Caucasus. Finland will be open to attack from Karelia. Baltic States will be open to attack from Karelia. If the Russians decide to go on the offensive out of Karelia, then that’s what you want.
I1:
Purchase: 1 inf, Transport, Take Egypt or Trans Jordan
G2: Swing back north. Re-take Baltic States (if captured on R1) with 6 tanks, fighters, 1 inf from EPL. Take Belorussia with 6 tanks, all remaining troops in EPL. NCM all fighters to Poland.
After G2, the Germans have 12 tanks + all surviving fighters + bomber + 1-2 inf/rt positioned against Moscow.
At this point the Russians are in a difficult position. If they went on the offensive out of Karelia on R1, then those forces have either been destroyed in Baltic States or are out of position in Finland. They must fortify Moscow but also have to defend against the Italians in the Caucasus. The Italians have 2 transport, 2 CA shots, 1 BB shot, + fighter threatening southern Russia.
Of course there are various things that can happen in between G1 and G3 that can throw things off track. For example, Russia might pull troops out of Karelia on R1. The British or US might send planes into Moscow. Also even if all things go as planned, Germany still has to have decent dice rolls. This is mostly an early gamble.
I want to focus on poor Allied play or at least the ability of players to recognize threats, b/c there is a huge tell in this scenerio and that is the 6 armor buy on G1. This SCREAMS “I’m coming to kill Russia immediately!” and should tell the Allies to go KG(I)F.
In this case Russia should play defensively, take any gimmie counters on R1 if they can sack any Germany armor for inf, but you should see a full scale abandonment of Kar and I think a 6 inf, 3 rt buy. UK should also see this and immediately stack Per with 5 inf, 1 rt, aa and should land its 1-2 ftrs in UK after they kill the CA/trn in Sz 5. This way after G2 you can get an emergency ftr to Russia if needed and you have 6 units that can reinforce Cauc if the Axis pressure is fast and furious.
As for the US they won’t be in immediate position to help other then backing up the Alg landings maybe threaten Ita in rd 3, however in the meantime they can get 2 bombers to Mos for fodder (if desperate) and perhaps a ftr if it landed in the UK on rd 1.
At this point the Russians are in a difficult position. If they went on the offensive out of Karelia on R1, then those forces have either been destroyed in Baltic States or are out of position in Finland. They must fortify Moscow but also have to defend against the Italians in the Caucasus. The Italians have 2 transport, 2 CA shots, 1 BB shot, + fighter threatening southern Russia.
If faced with this scenerio, Russia obviously abandons Cauc. If the choice is lose Cauc or maybe lose Mos, you lose Cauc.
Of course there are various things that can happen in between G1 and G3 that can throw things off track. For example, Russia might pull troops out of Karelia on R1. The British or US might send planes into Moscow.
I think you should count on this, and I agree with your assessment on the gamble part. You simply have to put too much stock in your opponent making a bad move.
@Subotai:
@Cmdr:
No, let’s not go screwin up a perfectly good game with bids. :P
Its a very good game yes, but it’s not perfectly balanced. I have yet to loose as axis with NOs against allies w/o bids.
You need better opponents.
DM:
I don’t think Russia should alter their moves at all.
I do think this is the one time in a hundred games where America should abandon the Pacific and dedicate itself, exclusively, to the destruction of Italy. England, meanwhile, can ignore Africa (since America needs it to stage for the destruction of Italy, let America liberate it) and send everything it can into Karelia each round.
-5 IPC for a lost NO is nothing if Germany’s going with tank heavy builds and you can always walk out of Karelia and into Finland if you really want that NO back so badly. (Of course, the 10 IPC NO for taking out Europe trumps the 5 NO for not having Bricana units in Russia (Britain + American = Bricana in case you are wondering.)
@Cmdr:
DM:
I don’t think Russia should alter their moves at all.
I kind of agree. I don’t do much attacking on R1 anyway, typcially you can hit one spot maybe 2, but not if it means thinning yourself out. In this case I wouldn’t want to walk into 6 armor. Spread the Germans out since they’ll be low on inf and have them come to you.
Usually I’ll take Fin if it is there to be had and I have no problem with 6 inf, 3 rt if you want to stack Belo on Rus 1 or fall back (maybe Ger had awesome dice).
I prefer 5 inf, 3 arm if Ger takes some loses or if I think I need the extra arm to deter a G2 move to Kar.
Everything out east gets retreated 1 spot west regardless of what G does.
I’ve moved away from a Russian 1 BST counter unless you go strafe/retreat or G takes heavy losses on G1 and you can wipe out some rt and arm.
That I can agree with.
Usually I either hit Baltic States (if it is weak enough to hit) OR Finland + East Poland/Ukraine (which ever is weaker) because Russia only has the 1 tank and Finland is usually pretty gutted, so you can pull off a snipe with Inf+Art from Karelia.
I also usually abandon Karelia anyway…but if Germany is going Balls to the Walls for Moscow, Karelia might need Russian defense to protect British equipment (assuming the Transport in SZ 2 was not lost already.)
I’ve been abandoning Kar A LOT lately. Either my opponents are going really heavy into BST (Inf/rt + at least 3-4 arm) on G1 or I’m not putting up a good defense to make a counter even remotely worth it.
So yeah, I 've kind of made deadzoneing Kar on R1 my standard. Bonus if I can hit Fin with 1-2 inf, 1 rt like you suggest, but I’ve also seen a lot of 3-4 inf defenses there too, so I gear up with the 3 armor buy and try to deter a heavy G2 move.
I’ve yet to have to make a move (or seen the need to move) to Kar with the UK in rd 1 or 2. I’ve been seeing a lot of German air lingering within range of the sz 3/4 area and a pesky sub is sometimes in sz 6 come G2.
Plus I really like to go Heavy Allies to Alg in Rd 2, dumping 4 UK units and 4-6 US.
I suppose I’d consider a Round 1 UK to Kar or Arch move if Ger hit Kar in rd 1 or something but I’ve yet to see that attack.
I’ve been popping a couple of Russian bombers in the first three rounds as well. Really helps trade territories and, combined with the Russian Submarine, you can stop Germany from blocking British Bombardments with a measly destroyer.
(SS + 2 BMB should be plenty to take out that destroyer and only risk losing something 33% of the time. If you have Karelia, lose the submarine, you can build another next round. If you don’t you can lose a bomber. Odds are, if England’s pounding Germany with 8 Ground Units and 8 Bombardments each round, they’ll run out of cash before you run out of bombers!)
@Cmdr:
You need better opponents.
Yes, thats what I’m trying to get here, first you had to postpone, and then U-505 is not sure if he can play live games… :|
I would still like to play against some of the better players on this forum to see their allied strats.
