@Cmdr:
With as fast as the Allies can take Japan down, I think we need more axis strategies to take out Russia equally as fast.
I think we need a bid :evil: :roll: :-D
@Subotai:
@Cmdr:
With as fast as the Allies can take Japan down, I think we need more axis strategies to take out Russia equally as fast.
I think we need a bid :evil: :roll: :-D
No, let’s not go screwin up a perfectly good game with bids. :P
I don’t know if Egypt needs to be taken or not. Yes, if you don’t kill the fighter then you risk Fig, BmB, DD, CA vs your 2 CA/BB in the Med, but is that really that bad? You’re planning to have Moscow by round 3 and keeping those units that you would have used in Egypt for an attack on Russia could ensure that happens.
BTW, have you considered (instead of attacking Egypt) bringing the an extra infantry and armor from Africa to Ukraine with the transport? That could give you a really significant stack in Ukraine.
I will add that if allies go all out KGF/KIF then moving the Jap fleet to Europe is probably a good idea. If US leaves the pacific altogether then the NOs are a free lunch. You only need a transport and a few naval bombardments and its done deal in the pacific.
If Germany + Italy then fails to put Russia under serious pressure, Japan can help with IJN in the med, and ftrs as suggested.
And most obviously, if the US goes after Japan then Japan must defend at sea, instead of helping G+I taking Russia down.
@Danger:
Your Strategy depends on Russia not doing anything on their first turn but waiting for you to capture Moscow. If the Russian player builds the average 5 inf and 3 arm on R1 they are sure to have everything they need to retake Belorussia or East Ukraine on R2 which then makes it impossible to take Moscow on G3. Honestly how many inf and art do you have left after G1 to take either of those territories and then hold them with anything but luck from a Russian counter-attack? Now if Russia wastes their army making desperate attacks on R1 then you may have a chance but this is very doubtful unless you’re playing a novice.
The plan is not necessarily for Germany to take and hold either Belorussia or East Ukraine on G2, but for Italy to clear/take one of them on I2 to allow Germany to blitz in. Though if Germany were to take Belorussia on G2 with any available infantry and artillery with any air units in range supporting, then it would force Russia to take it back, and there is a good chance that Eastern Ukraine may be left under-defended against Italy.
Ok so now its G3 and you have a stack of armor in East Poland and 4 Bombers, 2 inf, and 1 AA gun back in Germany with France either under Allied control or with a couple Italians holding it until UK 3 when they retake it with the Americans landing on US 3 with even more forces. Italy has no units to retake France with on Italy 2 since they only have a fighter in Italy and maybe a couple units transported back from Africa or Bulgaria back to France. So the UK holds France or easily retakes it with even more forces backed up by the Americans who took Algeria on US 2 and can now either sidestep to France or head deeper into Africa either way the Italians can’t stop them.
Actually, at the end of G1, you should have 6 inf, 1 art, and a fighter or 2 on France, which should keep England off of it, since they can only attack it with 1 inf, 1 arm, 2 fig, 1 bmb, and 1 ca shore bombardment. Then on turn 2, you move all but 1 inf of those units to Germany to cover your bombers and or cover Germany if UK’s transport is in range, which it probably is. This will definitely allow you to take France back on Turn 3. If you want, you could even have Italy help cover France, and you may not even lose it at all.
If UK takes Northwestern Europe on UK1 (with only 1 or 2 units, because they only have 1 transport), then you could divert 1 or 2 inf + some air units to take it back and still have enough to cover Germany.
Your arm in Russia than can no longer hit Moscow can now make an impressive attack on Karelia or Caucasus but with no reinforcements backing them up for G4 the Russians will have an impressive stack that can easily throw back your attack that will quickly fall apart unless you have the luckiest rolls ever. Also, Russia has been able to take back some of your previous gains now with little or no effort since you would have nothing else holding the territories you are leaving behind as you advance into Karelia or Caucasus. It would be Stalingrad all over again with a large force stranded deep in Russia with no one coming to save them and with Germany thinking about retaking France or losing Italy with a combined UK/US assault soon to come from France.
If taking Moscow is impossible, then you still have options, such as the following
1. Take Caucaus very strong. Japan reinforces with 4-5 fighters and 1-4 land troops, and Italy reinforces with 2 land units and 2 fighters (if they’re still alive). I REALLY don’t think that Russia will be able to attack this large of a stack of units, and after G2, when Germany begins building on Caucaus, it seems that Moscow will fall in short order.
2. Just consolidate your forces and get your 2 NO’s. You may be able to take Karelia or not, but just hold the line with 3 of the Russians territories. Use your 4-5 bombers and 4 fighters to attack/fend off the UK navy and/or possibly even build a navy yourself with 2 loaded carriers. You can even use the 4-5 bombers to conduct a SBR campaign against Russia and/or UK.
Whatever you do, of course starting from G3, you will need to get more boots (infantry) on the ground.
In the end Germany must produce ground units every turn in order to continue the flow of forces into Russia and hold France or else you’ll have to expend forces retaking France that are badly needed to keep the attack on Russia rolling. It’s easy to stall out the Germans in Russia early in the game since they have few forces to back up G1’s gains. This in the end is the real problem if you pull your arm back to East Poland and hope to hold Belorussia with a few inf the Russians can retake the Baltic states and Belorussia or the Ukraine and East Ukraine or all of the above if they put up a fight on G1 and took out 2 or 3 of your inf which happens more often than not.
All Russia has to do is make sure they have a strong enough defense in Belorussia or East Ukraine to hold back a 2 arm, 1 ftr attack by Italy and the whole plan is in the crapper. A lucky attack by Italy though could give you your chance to take Russia thus throwing the whole game in your favor but I would not hold my breath. :|
The game is not over if this strategy doesn’t play out exactly as planned.
This strategy is probably not one I would use every time, but it seems that it may be useful to have alternate openings rather than just following a script every time one plays the Axis.
@Cmdr:
No, let’s not go screwin up a perfectly good game with bids. :P
Its a very good game yes, but it’s not perfectly balanced. I have yet to loose as axis with NOs against allies w/o bids.
I’m with Danger Mouse on this one, I think this assumes some poor Russian movements or play.
That said it is a nice threat, but I’m wondering if a more subtle approach works just as well or maybe better?
Germany can still try to take/hold Epl in rd 2 and Ita can still open the door for a German blitz to Moscow, but if it isn’t an overwhelming threat maybe you can steal Moscow with an attack of 5-6 armor 1-3 planes vs. 5-8 units.
I can see this as sort of the equivalent to a G2 sealion in Revised. You might sneak a win every here and there but I think the more exprienced players will always be wary if/when Ger gets within blitzing distance to Mos.
The good thing, unlike sea lion where you need ships, is Germany doesn’t really have to go out of its way to put up this threat. “Normal” game action could makes this a possiblity even if you buy something generic in rd 1 and 2 like 7 inf, 2 arm and 2 bom, 8 inf.
The last two games I played (w/o NO, no tech), Germany was able to take Moscow on Turn 3.
G1:
Purchase: 6 tanks
Combat:
Attack Egypt with Bomber
Clear British fleet except BB and Transport in SZ 2
Take Ukraine with 3 inf, 4 tanks, rt
Take East Poland with 3 inf, 2 tanks, rt
Take Baltic States with 2 inf, rt, CA shot, fighter
NCM:
Move 1 inf from Finland to Norway
After G1, the Germans will be poised against Caucasus. Finland will be open to attack from Karelia. Baltic States will be open to attack from Karelia. If the Russians decide to go on the offensive out of Karelia, then that’s what you want.
I1:
Purchase: 1 inf, Transport, Take Egypt or Trans Jordan
G2: Swing back north. Re-take Baltic States (if captured on R1) with 6 tanks, fighters, 1 inf from EPL. Take Belorussia with 6 tanks, all remaining troops in EPL. NCM all fighters to Poland.
After G2, the Germans have 12 tanks + all surviving fighters + bomber + 1-2 inf/rt positioned against Moscow.
At this point the Russians are in a difficult position. If they went on the offensive out of Karelia on R1, then those forces have either been destroyed in Baltic States or are out of position in Finland. They must fortify Moscow but also have to defend against the Italians in the Caucasus. The Italians have 2 transport, 2 CA shots, 1 BB shot, + fighter threatening southern Russia.
Of course there are various things that can happen in between G1 and G3 that can throw things off track. For example, Russia might pull troops out of Karelia on R1. The British or US might send planes into Moscow. Also even if all things go as planned, Germany still has to have decent dice rolls. This is mostly an early gamble.
I want to focus on poor Allied play or at least the ability of players to recognize threats, b/c there is a huge tell in this scenerio and that is the 6 armor buy on G1. This SCREAMS “I’m coming to kill Russia immediately!” and should tell the Allies to go KG(I)F.
In this case Russia should play defensively, take any gimmie counters on R1 if they can sack any Germany armor for inf, but you should see a full scale abandonment of Kar and I think a 6 inf, 3 rt buy. UK should also see this and immediately stack Per with 5 inf, 1 rt, aa and should land its 1-2 ftrs in UK after they kill the CA/trn in Sz 5. This way after G2 you can get an emergency ftr to Russia if needed and you have 6 units that can reinforce Cauc if the Axis pressure is fast and furious.
As for the US they won’t be in immediate position to help other then backing up the Alg landings maybe threaten Ita in rd 3, however in the meantime they can get 2 bombers to Mos for fodder (if desperate) and perhaps a ftr if it landed in the UK on rd 1.
At this point the Russians are in a difficult position. If they went on the offensive out of Karelia on R1, then those forces have either been destroyed in Baltic States or are out of position in Finland. They must fortify Moscow but also have to defend against the Italians in the Caucasus. The Italians have 2 transport, 2 CA shots, 1 BB shot, + fighter threatening southern Russia.
If faced with this scenerio, Russia obviously abandons Cauc. If the choice is lose Cauc or maybe lose Mos, you lose Cauc.
Of course there are various things that can happen in between G1 and G3 that can throw things off track. For example, Russia might pull troops out of Karelia on R1. The British or US might send planes into Moscow.
I think you should count on this, and I agree with your assessment on the gamble part. You simply have to put too much stock in your opponent making a bad move.
@Subotai:
@Cmdr:
No, let’s not go screwin up a perfectly good game with bids. :P
Its a very good game yes, but it’s not perfectly balanced. I have yet to loose as axis with NOs against allies w/o bids.
You need better opponents.
DM:
I don’t think Russia should alter their moves at all.
I do think this is the one time in a hundred games where America should abandon the Pacific and dedicate itself, exclusively, to the destruction of Italy. England, meanwhile, can ignore Africa (since America needs it to stage for the destruction of Italy, let America liberate it) and send everything it can into Karelia each round.
-5 IPC for a lost NO is nothing if Germany’s going with tank heavy builds and you can always walk out of Karelia and into Finland if you really want that NO back so badly. (Of course, the 10 IPC NO for taking out Europe trumps the 5 NO for not having Bricana units in Russia (Britain + American = Bricana in case you are wondering.)
@Cmdr:
DM:
I don’t think Russia should alter their moves at all.
I kind of agree. I don’t do much attacking on R1 anyway, typcially you can hit one spot maybe 2, but not if it means thinning yourself out. In this case I wouldn’t want to walk into 6 armor. Spread the Germans out since they’ll be low on inf and have them come to you.
Usually I’ll take Fin if it is there to be had and I have no problem with 6 inf, 3 rt if you want to stack Belo on Rus 1 or fall back (maybe Ger had awesome dice).
I prefer 5 inf, 3 arm if Ger takes some loses or if I think I need the extra arm to deter a G2 move to Kar.
Everything out east gets retreated 1 spot west regardless of what G does.
I’ve moved away from a Russian 1 BST counter unless you go strafe/retreat or G takes heavy losses on G1 and you can wipe out some rt and arm.
That I can agree with.
Usually I either hit Baltic States (if it is weak enough to hit) OR Finland + East Poland/Ukraine (which ever is weaker) because Russia only has the 1 tank and Finland is usually pretty gutted, so you can pull off a snipe with Inf+Art from Karelia.
I also usually abandon Karelia anyway…but if Germany is going Balls to the Walls for Moscow, Karelia might need Russian defense to protect British equipment (assuming the Transport in SZ 2 was not lost already.)
I’ve been abandoning Kar A LOT lately. Either my opponents are going really heavy into BST (Inf/rt + at least 3-4 arm) on G1 or I’m not putting up a good defense to make a counter even remotely worth it.
So yeah, I 've kind of made deadzoneing Kar on R1 my standard. Bonus if I can hit Fin with 1-2 inf, 1 rt like you suggest, but I’ve also seen a lot of 3-4 inf defenses there too, so I gear up with the 3 armor buy and try to deter a heavy G2 move.
I’ve yet to have to make a move (or seen the need to move) to Kar with the UK in rd 1 or 2. I’ve been seeing a lot of German air lingering within range of the sz 3/4 area and a pesky sub is sometimes in sz 6 come G2.
Plus I really like to go Heavy Allies to Alg in Rd 2, dumping 4 UK units and 4-6 US.
I suppose I’d consider a Round 1 UK to Kar or Arch move if Ger hit Kar in rd 1 or something but I’ve yet to see that attack.
I’ve been popping a couple of Russian bombers in the first three rounds as well. Really helps trade territories and, combined with the Russian Submarine, you can stop Germany from blocking British Bombardments with a measly destroyer.
(SS + 2 BMB should be plenty to take out that destroyer and only risk losing something 33% of the time. If you have Karelia, lose the submarine, you can build another next round. If you don’t you can lose a bomber. Odds are, if England’s pounding Germany with 8 Ground Units and 8 Bombardments each round, they’ll run out of cash before you run out of bombers!)
@Cmdr:
You need better opponents.
Yes, thats what I’m trying to get here, first you had to postpone, and then U-505 is not sure if he can play live games… :|
I would still like to play against some of the better players on this forum to see their allied strats.
