Is Japan a Monster? [Economic Breakdown]

That’s not entirely true.  While they can kill most of China’s units on J1 it still takes 3 turns to get through all of China.  The point is if Japan sends its 9 inf after China in round 1 (which is should), it will likely lose 3.  1 inf lost in 3 or 4 ter.  I forget off hand how many they can attack.  But 3 inf vs. 1 inf is a should win battle, but odds are decent, esp if it goes multiple rds to lose 1 inf.  So Japan is down to 6 inf, and China is at 3 (they’ll likely get to place 2 on US-Chi 1).  China can retreat and/or picket another 2-3 ter.  I like to retreat all inf but it doesn’t matter.  The point is by time Japan gets its initial inf through China (on J3) they are down to 3-5 inf.  THIS IS COUNTERABLE BY RUSSIA, who retreated it’s 9 Eastern inf back to Novo.  Goodbye J inf and welcome back China.  This is why Japan needs a steady flow of inf behind the initial thrust.  The 9 starting inf are enough to clear and kill China but not nearly enough to enter Kaz/Novo.  Russia will eat them alive.  Japanese reinforcements need to land (or be placed at an IC) in Asia in Rd 2 otherwise there is a gap in Japan’s defense.

I’m not arguing that China can’t be killed or that they are somehow strong, I’m just saying that they can cut down Japan’s starting inf.

Here’s another likely scenerio.  Japan is doing its normal damage to China and China retreats/places its last inf in Chi (last China ter) boarding Novo.  Now Russia takes the inf that started in Yak/Stc/Bury (when avail) retreats to Novo then reinforces the China inf in Chi.  So you end up with a mixed stack of 8 inf.  Can 6 Jap inf win?  No.  They need ftr help.  Well they may not have the ftrs if they are off taking Aus or in Sz 62, or off the coast of Ind, or harassing HI or Ala.

I think people assume that Japan just walks through Asia, and yes that is true to an extent, but it doesn’t mean they don’t run into resistance as they approach Mos or Persia.  Russia with 2-3 inf out East isn’t strong, but if they put all those inf into Novo or Kaz and all of a sudden have 10 inf, then that is a different story.

Yes, I agree China is essentially a non-entity by J2, but in the case you describe (China with 3 inf), they should not split those up and  they should be retreating them to Chi.  This way Russia can reinforce, if they deem they have some of the initial Eastern inf to spare.  Now I understand China will not be getting more inf but if Russia reinforces with 3-4 inf, now you have a stack of 7 inf.  Japan needs ftrs in range to kill that stack, which they may or may not be depending on Japs Pac moves which brings me to this…

This little scenerio was in response to a Jap planned assualt/harassing on Ala/Wcan and potential aggressive moves against the US to stop/interupt the US shuck in KGF.

Now if you play Japan and dash to Mos then you’re right, the Allies have to use other counters, but my point is Japan cannot assume its initial inf and J1 landings will be enough to get through all of China and India because they won’t.  Check that, they may be enough to get through, but they won’t be enough to even remotely threaten Moscow.  The loss of all the China territories does nothing to weaken Russia, it doesn’t even weaken the US at all, it just gives Japan some extra ipcs.  Enough to buy 3 more inf, big deal considering they need at least 2 ICs to over take Russia’s production (assume Kar is lost briefly to Ger at some point).

If you are reinforcing Asia with a decent amount of troops on J2/J3 then I completely agree with you and all other strong J players.

BUT it is when Japan goes after essentially every island by J2 (including HI, Ngu and/or Sol) where they can run into trouble against an Allied Strategic Retreat Strategy.

@Cmdr:

…Japan is earning so much.

Irrelevant to killing the initial China resistance. 
Japan earning 42+, 50+ on J2, J3 doesn’t reach Chi until J5, J6.
At best, you’ll get to put your initial 17 ipc into play (I like the 2 trn 1 inf buy).  By then China did its job, it cut the intial J inf stack in half or more which gives Russia the ability to handle the J survivors for another couple of rds, until the massive reinforcements arrive in Rd 6,7, etc. from the high J incomes that start from rd 2 on.

Russia can handle stacks of 2-3 J inf, but they can’t handle stacks of 6-7+, so if China can whittle down the initial stack to 3-5 inf or less then that is a huge success for the Allies, esp if their is a gap of very few reinforcements for a turn or 2.

I always liked Japan going after the US in Revised a bit better b/c you could land directly into Wcan.  I think it may have been easier to pull off the surpise aspect of it.

I’m not sure that exist in AA50. 
Granted I haven’t had a lot of J players go after me when I’m US, unless I started it by going Pac first, so I’m just having touble seeing how Japan can do it (fairly quickly that is, by rd 3-4?) without weakening some other area.  Any time after that and the US should be somewhat prepared for it and if it has to it can turn all its ipc to Japan at that point (after you’ve landed in Afr rd 2-3 and sunk the Ita fleet rd 3-4).

I should say I agree that I think Japan can go after the US, I just don’t think it has the capability to surprise the US and catch them off guard.  I’m just not convinced going after the US is the easier (or cheaper) task between the choice of WUS vs. Mos.

You can kill the Italian Fleet as early as rd 2, and rd 4 is usually the absolute latest.  It can’t flee, the Axis can’t keep the canal open.

Depending on how you play the Allies the UK can counter Trj heavy in Rd 3 if needed, then your 4 US ftrs (in Sz 12 or Alg) + 2 boms sink the Ita fleet.

The UK can typically trade Trj in Rds 2 and 3, while in rd 4 they can take Egy.  The fleet can’t go anywhere.

If the Ita fleet tries to reload in Sz 14 in Rd 2 that just allows the UK or US to use their DDs for fodder sparing some ftrs.  You can even 1-2 the Ita fleet with UK-US if you have to.

Also if the Fleet leaves, Rome could open to a significant landing by both UK and US in both Rd 3 and 4.

The US alone can attack Rome with 6 ground units, 4 ftrs, 2 boms as early as round 3.

Right, but at that point they usually only have 1 territory left (the last one), so it is not that big of a deal to stack them all in one and reinforce with a few Russians (if they can).

I usually only end up leaving “blocking inf” if I have (like you suggest the placement limits) or if I can manuever 1-2 into a spot where no matter what only 1 J inf can attack with air.  Meaning my 2 inf will live another turn.

I don’t like sacrificing them to get slaughtered for a 33% chance at one hit, not when J can bring overwhelming air.  If I can retreat then sometimes the ftrs can’t reach (even from Bur/Fic) and I can get a defensive boost from the retreating Russians or heck, maybe Russia did really well on R2-3 and can spare 1-2 arm for extra defense.  You never know, so I try to preserve the inf as long as possible.

@Funcioneta:

We are reaching a interesting point: the fate of italian fleet; with your moves, seems pretty clear italians cannot survive and it’s difficult they escape to Indian Ocean (but I think they may have at least a small chance of this last). OK, let’s say axis choose not do Polar Express and chooses fighting for Africa in 1st place. With the swarm of trannies Japan starts, do you think that Japan can smash that stack of UK troops in per or trj at time to join with italians or let them escape and then back to mediterranean waters? Can Japan arrive at time to Africa and stop western allies chain of reinforcements with their own stack?. If so, I think the game is won anyway for axis because axis will conquer most of Africa and keep the economic advantage. If western allies shift to Europe, Japan simply shifts to Caucasus

Yes, the Ita fleet is very important in a KG(I)F.  IMO, It is very similar to Classic or Revised b/c in both those editions you’d want to kill the Ger Med fleet by rd 4.  After that you start to have touble b/c of what you suggest with Japan’s potential moves.

But if you can kill it and essentially limit the early Axis African income you are never that far off of economic parity come mid game.  The problem arises when you not only have a Japan at 60, Ita at 20, and Ger at 45+.

Right now I think there is very little the Allies can do to stop Japan from getting to 60 ipc.  Even a US Pac build up takes time and will likely not prevent Aus from falling in rd 2 and certainly won’t help China or Northern Russia from falling.  So what I am doing is conceding that Japan will get to be huge but trying to limit its effectiveness by trying to cripple Ita and/or Ger.  I can fight Ger/Ita in Europe and Afr a heck of a lot easier than Japan in the Pac or in Asia (at least in the early rds 1-4).  Also until the US can move on the Islands there is no IPC gain for the Allies.  You can’t really gain a good number of ipc until you move on the bigger islands and most of those are UKs.  So if the Axis do gain an IPC adv early it becomes that much harder to even it out for the Allies since you’re not in any real position to fight over some of the easier IPC to get (Afr or Eastern Europe territories).

I will say I do think there are times the US or Allies could/should go after Japan, but I don’t think it is necessary to immediately throw 40 ipc worth into the Pac in Rd 1.

@Funcioneta:

Japan will maybe stop western allied stacks at Africa and western axis can focus on finish soviets. And the clock is against allies because of axis economic advantage.

This is a possibility.  But it depends on where Japan puts its ICs.  If they put 2 up near Man then it is not as effective, but 1 in Bur/Fic and Ind (or EI + Ind) can bring a lot of immediate force to the Middle East and Afr.

I think an important thing for Japan is to claim/hold Per.  If you can block the Allies here, then it becomes easier for you to defend (inf, arm, ftrs etc.) and harder to the Allies to push you out.

@Cmdr:

Granted, DM.  I can see a routine situation where there are 4 Russian Infantry and 3 Chinese Infantry in Chinghai.  At this point, Japan can ignore China completely, IMHO.  So what, you don’t have Chinghai.  China’s not getting more infantry, Russia’s got 4 infantry tied up and you have say 4 infantry tied up with a “threat” to Chinghai.  From here you don’t have to attack Chinghai, you can go south to Persia and north to Evenki easily enough.

Or you can plow through.  But honestly, I think you’re ahead just by tying up 21 IPC worth of Allied units defending a 1 IPC territory while only tying up 12 IPC of your own units to keep them pinned there.  Russia will eventually have to pull out or you will eventually take Kazakh/Novosibirsk and prevent a counter attack on Chinghai allowing you to kill the defenders there when it’s most advantageous to you.

Yeah you can do either, but the 1-2 turn delay may be all the Allies need before they retreat.  Every turn delay is likely 7-8 more inf for Russia (earning 21-24).  It also depends on how much Japan has already in the China ter.  It is not easy to reverse those units and go north or south.  That is major back tracking.  If they don’t back up with anything China could suicide 4 inf vs. 3-4 inf, then Russia follows up with say 3-4 inf, 1 arm, and now Japan could have a real annoyance on their hands.  Obviously depends on the game, but the real Allied goal is to just buy time (assuming you’ve reclaimed or are in the process of reclaiming Afr).  In a “prefect scenerio” each turn delay means 12-16 more (6-8 uk, 6-8 us) Allied troops to Kar, Bst, or Pol.