Economic warfare expansion to AA50

“As long as you have Convoy damage you can’t build transports and you can’t embark or disembark units on transports”

This does not make sence. No relationship can exist or prevent those things from occurring , except by direct means.

UK bombs Berlin, and Hitler says “leave our troops on transports till i get our city rebuilt?”  HUH? What?

If you add air combat in every combat, you will prolong the game a lot and I don’t think the game needs that. I think fighters and bombers are powerful enough in ordinary combat.

WE have the same thing , except i wish to not allow planes on both sides to ignore each other, but rather establish air superiority between themselves with concurrent air combat rounds. It take no time at all to roll plane hits separately and allocate these hits to other planes, then rolling out land units. Land units should not be able to hit 450MPH fighters, unless they have flak artillery, which is covered by AA guns anyway.

The lower air values ensure a similar outcome in the sky, allowing the modeling of battle of Britain style actions.

Try it sometime. But remember to use this you must allow defender retreat or it wont work well.

Convoy damage would represent disruption of the sea supply system so that invasions couldn’t be performed, operations that have to use massive amounts of shipping to be possible. In the war, the Atlantic sub war had just this effect and no major invasions could be launched by sea in '41 due to the heavy convoy losses.

Well i think you are looking from the correct perspective from the authority in your rules by sppealing to the historical record. Its the only way to make sence of anything when you design house rules.

But the historical record does not demonstrate a relationship from the ability to effect the ability to perform a sea invasion, by crippling loses in merchant shipping. IN 1941 UK was not in a position to invade but for the reasons you stated. However, uk and USA made joint plans to enter Europe should the Soviets face an immediate collapse as early as 1942.

America invaded Africa in late 1942 even when they faced huge shipping loses from the second “happy time” (look it up)

America occupied Azores, UK made commando raids against Dieppe and St Nazaire, while they were losing hundreds of ships on the high seas. It just does not make any sence.

Also latter in the war u-boats were still at large and the Allies still invaded Sicily and Italy. Your idea IMO does not make sence.

On the other idea i see your looking more closely like i do. Except moving 3 makes no sence.

also, in the mid war period fighters did sink subs and bombers were used to scout, I don’t know why you ignore cruisers in ASW duty because they are integral part of this protection. Thats would make them more viable for cash strapped nations who may have one around.

lastly this has me godsmacked:

“All Convoy damage must be repaired before any naval unit may be built.”

Please don’t consider this. why would you have such a rule?

I first say that i enjoy your efforts and how you look at things. Its professional and not ad hoc. I am just trying to point out inconsistencies to help you arrive at the conclusion by an examination of the period were dealing with.

I don’t think a complete loss of invasion capability would take place even with the rule I thought of, since US or UK would surely be able to repair all convoy damage inflicted on them. Even with 3 subs attacking you would have around 10 IPCs loss in production.

The rule as stated still prohibits the building of naval units, and its possible players of the same team would build more than 3 subs and ‘cost no more than 10 IPC’  Rule systems have to look at the extremes and are refuted even if ONE time in ONE game a trick is discovered which breaks the game. IMO your rule can lead to a broken game.  Japan, Germany and Italy, can start adding more subs to the 4-5 they begin with and prevent the allies from ever getting transports made. While u-boats enjoyed the “happy times” the allies were building more merchant ships than can be sunk. it was a race and the allies were still winning it. Your rule takes the wind out of the sail.

None of these invasions would be represented in Axis & Allies. Operation Overlord was postponed due to the fact of submarine warfare and this is the kind of scale we are talking about. Of course, US and UK could have invaded France even in '42 but I’m not sure they would have succeeded. In game terms, this would mean that submarines in '41 and '42 inflict damage enough so that the number of transports to invade with would be too few.

Overlord was not postponed for this reason. Please find this fact and cite it. However, our landing in Morocco was in a scale represented by AA and performed in 1942. The landing at Sicily in 1943 was also in AA scale. IN both periods U-Boats had the upper hand and ships were being built.

IN 1944 they invaded and no U-boats has any effect on it
In 1942 they invaded Morocco and no U-boats had any effect
IN 1943 Italy didn’t do anything while Sicily was invaded.
In 1942 America invaded the solomons and Japanese subs didn’t have any effect on it.
In 1943 America invaded all sorts of islands and Japanese subs didn’t have any effect on it.

I can go on and on.

Of course, you could just have IPC damage being taken from cash at hand, but I wanted to find something similar to how SBR damage is handled in AA50 and also something that means you don’t have to have “ad-hoc” rules such as Germany and Soviet Union are immune from convoy attacks or the addition of convoy zones on the map.

Why not treat them all equally as long as they have the same access to IPC detached by sea zones. I have this posted in another thread:

Lend Lease: For each transport in the Atlantic the US player rolls one d6 = result equals IPC that can be sent to Russia and deducted from US IPC total. (I recommend you use chips) Procedure: place whatever you rolled in the Soviet Lend Lease box. The convoy box can be subject to attacks and should be protected. The following Soviet turn the IPC generated is added to the Soviet player’s treasury.

For example: The US player has 5 transports and rolls 5 dice resulting in 22 potential Lend Lease IPC. They elect to send only 15 and place that amount of chips in the Lend Lease Box. Enemy subs or planes can attempt to attack these IPC up to the limit of 15 IPC. They roll as a convoy raid attack.

Exception: You may place up to one naval ship in a VC even if the territory does not contain a factory.

Submarines:
Attacking Submarines can only engage enemy transports or perform convoy raids on enemy sea zones designated as such. If they elect to attack transports perform the following sequence:

1. Subs each roll at 2 or less to hit. Transports are removed for each hit.
2. ASW units (Destroyers and Cruisers) each roll hitting at one. Remove subs.
3. Subs may elect to submerge or continue attack.

Note: If attacking ASW units engage the subs on their own turn follow the same procedure except ASW units can now be hit rather than transports.

Special Rules:
• If the active player has Super Subs Technology they attack at 3 or less.
• If the active player has ASW Technology, then planes can now roll for ASW as long as a ASW naval unit is present (at a 1:1 basis). Also, all ASW units now roll at 2 or less to score a hit.

Submarines no longer block movement of surface naval units, except for transports. In combat with subs and other naval units, submarines are not involved. That’s to say they now perform as totally independent forms of naval combat. Once the surface naval combat is resolved, further combat with submarines can occur.
Convoy Zones: Each nation begins in control of specific sea zones that can be attacked by enemy naval forces or bombers. When the listed territory is occupied by the opposing side the convoy center is replaced with a new convoy token of the controlling player. Anytime the enemy enters this sea zone with a warship (not transport) they roll one D6:
1-2= 1 IPC lost, 3-4= 2 IPC lost, 5-6= 3 IPC lost. The convoy zone can only be attacked up to the full value of 3 IPC per turn. The following convoy centers are in the game:

Germany:
Sea zone #5-Convoy removed if Germany loses two of the three: Sweden, Finland, or Norway.

Italy:
Sea Zone #14- Convoy removed if Italy loses Libya or Balkans.

Japan:
Sea Zone #62- Convoy removed if Japan loses Manchuria.
Sea Zone #36- Convoy removed if Japan loses French-Indo China.

Soviet Union:
Sea Zone #4- Convoy removed if Soviets lose Karella S.S.R.

United Kingdom:
Sea Zone #8- Convoy removed if UK loses any part of Canada.
Sea Zone #2- Convoy removed if UK loses England.
Sea Zone #33-Convoy removed if UK controls less than 6 IPC in Africa.
Sea Zone #35-Convoy removed if UK controls loses India.
Sea Zone #12-Convoy removed if UK controls loses Egypt.
Sea Zone #39-Convoy removed if UK controls loses Australia.
Sea Zone #38-Convoy removed if UK controls loses East Indies or Borneo.
United States:
Sea Zone #10- Convoy removed if USA loses Eastern USA.
Sea Zone #50- Convoy removed if USA loses Western United States.
Sea Zone #54- Convoy removed if USA loses Alaska.
Sea Zone #56- Convoy removed if USA loses Philippine Islands.
Sea Zone #65- Convoy removed if USA loses Hawaii.

Note: In each case when the sea zone is occupied a new convoy zone is established by the side that captures the listed territories and the new player can now be attacked in the same manner on your own next turn.

Convoy Raid Attack: Submarines or planes in range can elect to attack these convoys in addition to other attacks in the same sea zone if other ships are also present (subs can only attack transports in this manner).

Procedure: move sub in sea zone with convoy box roll d6
1-2= 1 IPC lost
3-4= 2 IPC lost
5-6= 3 IPC lost

Following the Convoy Raid each submarine or plane has the option to attack enemy transports located in the sea zone.

under this system we bring back the basic convoy zones represented as they were historically and caped at 3 IPC max, so the other player cant pile up on one weak sea zone each turn.

Also, they are in flux, so if the assigned territories are taken they flip to convoy zones for the new conquering player. The problem with AAE was if all of Africa was axis occupied by Germany , their was no need to a UK convoy box, because now the Germans needed to bring the income over and establish sea lanes to supply the home territory with these resources. So you merely place a convoy token when the listed territories change hands and its now a target for the opposition.

Also, i allow a choice on multiple sea combat rounds. Perhaps both sides with to keep rolling, but still give each the option to retreat.

Sub combat is now totally separate and subs are NEVER again the ‘infantry of the sea’. Thats what destroyers are now.

I can move the zones around because they are afterall tokens that are placed on the map. Playtesting shows they are in correct places at this point.

I am responding to this part and the other part latter.

Yet your ASW rules doesn’t even include carriers which were the units that actually turned the tide against the subs!

Yes they do, but carriers didnt do ASW, planes did. once the convoy system was perfected and specific technology was created, planes from carriers ( not carriers) were used to locate and shoot down subs recharging batteries. Under my system ASW is a technology, which raises the score to hit from 1 to 2, effectively ending the happy time. So Carriers are very important once ASW gets developed. So i lose the idea that “planes cant attack w/o destroyers thing”, and say that they can as soon as they got ASW tech.

Also, i added cruisers which are a must for ASW capable units.

Rules should follow the Ockham’s razor principle, never be more complex than needed. The drawback of my ruleset is that you might destroy every enemy transport and then not get to attack economically the convoy routes. But adding convoy zones is so big a change I hope you can avoid it in some way.

convoy zones are not complex at all. they just delineate the zones that subs can grab money from. Thats it. The second point is a convoy zone represents the IPC traveling by sea, so you need a mechanism to model what happens when the territory that the IPC is traveling from is captured.

for example: if India falls to Japan, it makes no sence that a UK convoy zone should exist off of India, but rather a NEW Japanese convoy zone.

Its the same principle as the tokens are used to designate control. My system is extremely simple . Try it.

I like your way of conducting attacks against enemy transports, it is similar to mine even though I think fighters should added as an ASW unit aside DDs. Perhaps this can be expanded to be the way subs attack economically?

They are once fighters develop ASW. You have to represent the happy time when the allies had no clue how to counter the axis u-boats.

1. Subs can attack either as per OOB rules or against transports. It then functions as you say only that one other unit per destroyer may take part, fighter as well as cruiser. Instead of my “one combat round and then inflict IPC damage” you would simply have more rounds of combat as you have it. Transports are the required first casualty, but the attacker can continue vs. ASW units if he wishes.

Yes but its also the option of either player to submerge or retreat. Under my proposal you cant send subs to attack ASW, unless you originally had transports in the sea zone, and both sides are continuing combat for their own reasons. ( not a typical situation)

2. There should be some restriction on attacking subs but not as tough as you put it. Suggestions for ASW values in both defence and offensive combat, with DDs allowing one other unit to take part: DDs, FTRs & BMBs ‘2’, CAs ‘1’. This takes effect if attacking a sub-only force or when subs attack transports, but if subs make a normal attack or defends as part of surface fleet then all units defend according to OOB rules.

Now you bring in complications with unique values of hit depending on who is attacking subs… I thought you don’t like this? I say keep it all the same and everybody goes up to 2 when they get ASW technology.

3. We still have the movement issue. I suggest movement of ‘3’ only when attacking transports and no movement restrictions by destroyers, that’s the only way Germany will get their subs forward!

Not true under my proposal. remember only DD can attack subs sitting around, untill ASW tech is developed and thats at a 1 which is hardly gonna stop German subs moving. Once you got ASW this will change, but model the happy time which ended once the ASW got going. Giving subs extra movement just because of some idea that they will die is not a good rule. It has to be a real rule.It has to make sence. You can fix the issue by other means.

If we tweak the attack transports special ability and increase sub survivability we might not even need economic abstractions like convoy zones or convoy damage since just the sinking of transports will represent the convoy war!

I don’t know know to increase sub survivability ANY MORE, then only allowing only DD and CA to get after them at 1, and only after ASW tech is developed, adding planes and raising the value to 2. Its as minimal as possible.

I do use a tech to represent ASW, but that can be easily made from a rider on “shipyards” technology as you have.

Also, a convoy zone can be as simple as placing a token on the sea zone from a list for each player. Thats not ‘advanced’ at all. Sea zones are not advanced idea and used in AAE and AAP. MY only change is the IPC they represent is now represented by the new occupier should the attached income now be under new control.