Operation: Sealion

@ABWorsham:

Great point timerover51. How fast could Germany have built a navy by 1945? What size would this navy been?

Pretty Quickly if they hadn’t Attacked Russia, And a Good Chunk of the Z-Plan would have been Realized, Making the KGM more then a Heavy hitting Token Fleet.

I am completly Convinced had the Russians and Germans Stayed Allies. The Axis would have won WWII, weather it happens in 1935, or 39, or 45.

The UK and The US would not Stand a Chance Against them.

The British Centurion and the US Pershing clearly brought the Allies up to par with the Germans.

yes on par with the Germans after they surrendered. They were not used against Germany coming in very late when the war was decided, while Germany had tiger I in the mid war period.

German tanks were better than all allied counterparts except T34/76 because only German tanks required too many parts and even one tank of the same model had different part than another, so they were always in need of spare parts, while the Soviet t-34 was like  comparatively fewer parts and interchangeable. ON the battlefield the Germans always exacted more loses and punishment upon the enemy than they received in return.

Germany had jet power and could have had it earlier had Hitler not re-designated Me-262 as a tactical bomber rather than a pure interceptor.

Germany was ahead in Nuclear fission, but Hitler as usual stopped research when they had the lead and lost it. It was theirs to develop or let others pass them up. But they had the knowledge.

Germany also developed primitive radar latter , but radar was a defensive weapon and Hitler would have no part on it.

Under all aircraft types and rockets no nation was Germany equal, unless perhaps gliders are included.

The walter U-boat was superior to any other allied submarine and was faster than even some allied destroyers submerged.

as i remember the Allies copied German technology after the war and not the other way around.

Both the US and the UK gave up pretty quickly on the Walther Hydrogen Peroxide powered sub because of the continued explosions of the fuel.  That was also a problem with the ME-163 Komet, as unused H2O2 had this nasty habit of exploding on landing, which was not very good for the continued good health of the pilot.

As for the myth that the ME-262 could have been in combat earlier, that is just what it is, a myth.  The problem was engine unreliability, and the fact that not until the Germans had a look at the landing gear of a P-47 did they come up with the final gear for the ME-262.  The test pilots hated the engine of the ME-262 as they never knew when it was going to fail, only that it would.

Not sure where you get the idea that the Germans were ahead in Nuclear Fisson.  The ALSOS mission documents definitely do not show that, nor do they show any major interest in the idea.  Nerve gas is a different story, and a bit more complex.

As for rockets, that depends.  Liquid-fuel large rockets, yes.  Although if Goddard had had the funding that Von Braun received, that might have been more than a bit different.  Air to ground rockets for ground support, no.  Nothing even close to the US 5" HVAR, or the 11.75" Tiny Tim.  Air to air rockets, yes, because they had all of those B-17 to shoot at.  Oddly enough, the Allies did not have that many German bombers to shoot at after 1941.  Ground to air rockets would be a toss up between the UK and Germany.  Ground to ground, about even, although the Germans never had anything close to the rocket barrages launched by the Russians, or the US during an amphibious assault.

Germany was way behind in aircraft engine development, mainly because of poor fuel and not having a good turbocharger for non-Diesel engines.  As for the jet engine, which was developed by an Englishman named Whittle, if the UK had been able to devote a bit more time to research, rather than fighting a war, I suspect that they would have had a jet fighter a year or so earlier.  The Meteor was used to shoot down V-1s.  The Germans were a long way from anything comparable to the B-29, and the US had the B-36 under development.  They never did have any carrier aircraft, although the British is some respects were in the same boat there.  Transport planes were pretty much a US monopoly, with the German ones being hampered by having too many military characteristics build into them.

Both the US and the UK gave up pretty quickly on the Walther Hydrogen Peroxide powered sub because of the continued explosions of the fuel.  That was also a problem with the ME-163 Komet, as unused H2O2 had this nasty habit of exploding on landing, which was not very good for the continued good health of the pilot.

well thats typical for new technology. The allies were further behind

As for the myth that the ME-262 could have been in combat earlier, that is just what it is, a myth.  The problem was engine unreliability, and the fact that not until the Germans had a look at the landing gear of a P-47 did they come up with the final gear for the ME-262.  The test pilots hated the engine of the ME-262 as they never knew when it was going to fail, only that it would.

Hitler didn’t use them as proper interceptors when clearly Germany was not in need of more fighter-bombers. If Hitler had decided to begin with their natural talents it would have been used earlier to greater effect. Also, if Germany was winning the war by 1944 these units would have had fuel and sufficient quantities produced to outclass all allied counterparts. IN groups these were devastating to allied Bombers and more than a match for escorts. Plus other planes coming on line even better

As for rockets, that depends.  Liquid-fuel large rockets, yes.

Although if Goddard had had the funding that Von Braun received, that might have been more than a bit different.

Air to ground rockets for ground support, no.  Nothing even close to the US 5" HVAR, or the 11.75" Tiny Tim.  Air to air rockets, yes, because they had all of those B-17 to shoot at.  Oddly enough, the Allies did not have that many German bombers to shoot at after 1941.  Ground to air rockets would be a toss up between the UK and Germany.  Ground to ground, about even, although the Germans never had anything close to the rocket barrages launched by the Russians, or the US during an amphibious assault.

well thats the same thing as the A-bomb program as well. Hitler didn’t support it and it was done only as low level. If Hitler invested in the Bomb early and made it priority he may have got it in a few years.

Germany was way behind in aircraft engine development, mainly because of poor fuel and not having a good turbocharger for non-Diesel engines.  As for the jet engine, which was developed by an Englishman named Whittle, if the UK had been able to devote a bit more time to research, rather than fighting a war, I suspect that they would have had a jet fighter a year or so earlier.  The Meteor was used to shoot down V-1s.  The Germans were a long way from anything comparable to the B-29, and the US had the B-36 under development.  They never did have any carrier aircraft, although the British is some respects were in the same boat there.  Transport planes were pretty much a US monopoly, with the German ones being hampered by having too many military characteristics build into them.

The Germans had no need to long range strategic bomber. Its not because they didn’t have one means they didn’t have the means to build one. If the Reich was finishing off Russia, they may have developed some to bomb the ural factories and if they got far enough to bomb America. Only USA needed long range bombers because the way the war turned out.

ON V-1 basically any plane can shoot those down. The V-2 was impossible however, But the Germans also had many other planes in development and only didnt need these capabilities, but had the inventiveness to outclass allied technology even when they were losing the war and lacked resources. If they were winning the war it would have been  more pronounced.

@Imperious:

The British Centurion and the US Pershing clearly brought the Allies up to par with the Germans.

yes on par with the Germans after they surrendered. They were not used against Germany coming in very late when the war was decided, while Germany had tiger I in the mid war period.

German tanks were better than all allied counterparts except T34/76 because only German tanks required too many parts and even one tank of the same model had different part than another, so they were always in need of spare parts, while the Soviet t-34 was like  comparatively fewer parts and interchangeable. ON the battlefield the Germans always exacted more loses and punishment upon the enemy than they received in return.

Germany had jet power and could have had it earlier had Hitler not re-designated Me-262 as a tactical bomber rather than a pure interceptor.

Germany was ahead in Nuclear fission, but Hitler as usual stopped research when they had the lead and lost it. It was theirs to develop or let others pass them up. But they had the knowledge.

Germany also developed primitive radar latter , but radar was a defensive weapon and Hitler would have no part on it.

Under all aircraft types and rockets no nation was Germany equal, unless perhaps gliders are included.

The walter U-boat was superior to any other allied submarine and was faster than even some allied destroyers submerged.

as i remember the Allies copied German technology after the war and not the other way around.

Actually Imperious Leader, not to challenge your wealth of knowledge but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose. The people at Messerchmitt knew it was best suited for a fighter role so they secretly made adjustments in it’s design as to show Hitler in demonstration that it must be used as a fighter. A pretty thing to do behind his back, but they knew it’s power. It could bring down a fortress in a single burst. If the 262 would have been specified for a primary role as a fighter much earlier and mass produced, it would have cost the Allies immensly in the air war.

Unfortunately, they never really did solve all the kinks in the engine. Although plenty of jets flew sorties without difficulty, reoccuring problems with engine stalls and failure plauged it’s reliability. To this day, there aren’t (to MY knowledge) a single flyable 262 with the EXACT engine they were using. It’s too dangerous to pilots. I know of one that is being restored with modern jet engines in place of the original ones.

So it could be argued that if they had that fighter in mass production much ealier they may have had air supperiority. However, it was a technological breakthrough that was just a few years out of reach for the Reich in terms of all the kinks being worked out.

but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose.

Thats just what i said, but that it was a mistake to waste its abilities in this role, when they would have been better utilized as a proven interceptor against allied bombers and deployed as such earlier, than retrofit additional ordinance and equipment.

@Imperious:

but Hitler saw the Me-262 as a bomber and wanted it specified for that primary purpose.

Thats just what i said, but that it was a mistake to waste its abilities in this role, when they would have been better utilized as a proven interceptor against allied bombers and deployed as such earlier, than retrofit additional ordinance and equipment.

Oh -ok! I thought that may have been what you meant and I completely agree with you. They were proven to be a deadly interceptor and at the speeds they were capable of, you’d think that would be the first thing on Hilters mind: Defense of the Fatherland. His arrogance made his decisions just flat our stupid. His final orders to destroy Paris and even all railyards in Germany really showed how selfish he was at heart. When his whole campaign was for the restoration and empowerment of Germany yet his final months really showed he cared more about power than he ever cared about Germany and the well being of its people. Maybe he was driven to these actions out of insanity once Germanys loss was but writing on the wall.

It seems like every stupid decision he made from a leadership role, was based on pride and anger. He clearly was not capable of managing his emotions for the better of Germanys. It seems to me like leaders should be able to set aside fervent emotions and make decisions based on logic. Hitler certainly proved himself incapable of that.

If Hitler got shot before June 1941 and Von Manstein took over Germany would have won the war no question IMO.

Ohh! I’ll be spending the weekend studying Von Manstein. Seriously. I hardly know a thing. Thanks for theory.

His Lost Victories. Best book ever.

Awesome! I’ll look for it on Amazon! I’ve found some originals that are listed in poor condition and are 5 bucks or cheaper. Then they show up at my house in damn near perfect shape other than you can tell it’s been read.

@Deaths:

@ABWorsham:

Great point timerover51. How fast could Germany have built a navy by 1945? What size would this navy been?

Pretty Quickly if they hadn’t Attacked Russia, And a Good Chunk of the Z-Plan would have been Realized, Making the KGM more then a Heavy hitting Token Fleet.

I am completly Convinced had the Russians and Germans Stayed Allies. The Axis would have won WWII, weather it happens in 1935, or 39, or 45.

The UK and The US would not Stand a Chance Against them.

Good point Timeover 51. Hitler went to enormous lengths to hide the training of his men. Glider clubs were the cover for pilot training and other atheltic clubs were really training soldiers and indoctrinating youth into Nazi ideology. The Nazis had to remain very secretive at first as to not provoke retaliation of the Allies by breaking the Treaty.

As for your point Deaths Head. I respectfully disagree, but only on these grounds: In “Mein Kampf” it is very clear that Hitler wants communism crushed, hence, he wants Russia. Walter Weaver was one of the Luftwaffes best examples of a man that understould the agenda that book preached, and how the Luftwaffe should achieve those goals. He was the only major Nazi champion of the “4 engine bomber program” to attack Russian industry as I’ve mentioned before in these forums.

The Russians had been supplying Spain with tanks and other military help during the Spanish Civil war while the Germans supplied the Spanish Fascist movement with military help. One of the biggest gifts the germans gave Spanish Fascists was their Messerchmitt 109’s. Thier pilots achieved amazing success due to their aicrafts vast superiority in that time frame.

The SA had been in street fights with communist groups that led to deaths all the time. There was SO much tension between the NSDAP and the Russians from the get go, there was no way for an alliance. It was Russia who made the first agressive move against Germany by seizing Eastern Poland in 1939. Then they invaded Lithuania, Lativia and Estonia in 1940.

It should be noted that aside from invading countries right up against Germanies occupation, they proceeded to demmand that Hitler give them Finland and Norway. Hitler had enough and invaded Russia. Russias moves prior to Hitlers invasion were already setting up the Eastern front which Germany immediately began pushing back well out of Europe.

The NSDAP and eventually SA, the Waffen SS and the 3rd Reich in its entirety, were natural enemies of Communists and thereby; Russia.

I agree if they were allies, the war would have been far different but that never would have happened. National Socialists were natural enemies of communists.

I Disagree.

A good Chunk of Germanies Military was trained on Russian Soil before the war had Broke out.

Even Stalin was so Surprised he had to be Hospitalized for 3 days after the initial invasion of Russia.

Russia Did not Invade Eastern Poland. That was part of a Agreement.

Germany basically said we are invading Poland and Occupying it up to a Certain point. As a Sign of Peace, Germany basiccally allowed russia to occupy those “other” Territories in Poland.

Communism and National Socialism can co exist.  It’s when you throw in that Racial Bullshet, Thats when things get Screwy.

Remember A thing called the EuroAsian tripact.  If that gets Signed, Game over for the UK and USA.

Hitler didn’t see themselves as Liberators, but as Conquorers.

Hitler could have attacked Russia. But only after a Peaceful Securement of the Western Front. Then He would have been Successful.

Now, What if there was no Halocaust to speak of……  What would Germany do with a Extra 8 million+ in manpower.  :? And people like Albert Einstein?  :roll:

Now if Japan doesn’t attack Pearl until say '43-44. And Actively activates USA’s Participation in the Hostilities. The Axis will Roll. The National Language in UK will be German.

As for your Point on 4 engine Bombers, Problem Solved, Get rid of Goering!!!

Actually, you solve alot of Problems By Doing Just that.

Even Though Mein Kampf basically comes out and Says I want Russia. It doesn’t Say when.

Attacking Russia is a Good Idea, But JPN must be ready for it.

And You Must Listen to your Generals Advice,
Keep Dumping $ into Tech Advances.
And Don’t do Dumb Shit with your Military.

Hind Sight is 20-20 but anyone Knows a 2 Front War is Not going to be a Easy War, or a Cheap war.

Germany and Her Allies, Were in a Position to be able to take and Hold Europe. For a Very Long Time.
They Pissed that ability away the Second a German Soldior Crossed the Border into Russian Territory.

Very well put Deaths Head. Goering was such a lazy fool and a dope addict. He wanted MORE planes and not better ones. His arrogance cost the Germans their first real defeat at Dunkirk when Goerring persuaded Hitler that they could take the city without much, if any ground support. He was just trying to prove a point that his Luftwaffe was “the bomb” (pun half intended there)

They shold have made peace with England after taking Western Europe or continued bombing the RAF instead of Hitlers stupid decision to bomb civilian towns as a knee jerk, retaliatory reaction for a few bombs that fell in Germany one night. Goerring and Hitler were complete idiots when it came to fighting a war. I give credit more to the pilots and the Waffen SS who fought with incredible resolve in bad circumstances they were put in by the chain of command. (which was a quarrelsome, disorganized bunch at the top of it all)

Russia DID demmand territory from Hitler and he was NOT having it. Like you said, they were conquerors. Many Russians citizens originally helped the SS Honor Brigades and looked to them as liberators until those damn Enzentsgruppen Units started following the SS and Weirmacht, waiting until they won the city, then rounding up whomever they wished for extermination. Those gutless pieces of Sh*t! Didn’t fight in battle; just waited to round people up for mass murder. But again, we face who’s responsible for that decision: Hitler and Himmler.

Those units were doing things that made many of their men commit suicide. Letters were even sent by some of their top officers to Himmler and Hitler, pleading with them to reassign their units to other tasks because many of them could barely handle the guilt of what they were doing. Hitler responded by calling them “soft” and basically told them to “stomach it” and get it done. Sick. They could have taken Russia much easier with long range bombers and without the extermination squads on the heels of the military. They would have had a lot more cooperation from citizens of occupied territory. Stalin was a murdering mad man who may have been even crazier than Hitler.

The Waffen SS were taking POW’s while the Russian NKVD units were doing things like leaving German POW’s hacked to death with spades in towns where the Germans took power. They would even round up all the Russian civilians of the town and intsead of evacuating them, they would leave them all shot dead for the Germans to see.

We’ve discussed this before but I’ll reiterate that Russian “Labor Camps” killed far more peope than German concentration camps ever did.

The Waffen SS unit “Leibstandarte” found the bodies of their many comrades hacked to death with spades. (one of the 3 most successful and brave SS units) They retaliated by ordering no prisoners taken and for 3 days in mid 1942, they shot around 4000 Russian soldiers captured on the spot.

The Weirmachts original disgust for the SS sooned turned to favor after seeing such things done by especailly the NKVD. General Eberhard von Mackensen wrote personllay to Himmler describing the unit “Leibstandarte” as, and I quote: “a genuine elite unit I am proud and happy to have under my command and, further more, I wish to retain.”

Source of refferce: “The SS: Hitlers Instrument Of Terror” by Gordon Williams.

As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.

I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.

Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.

So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge?  Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.

Goering was second by Hitlers decree. But Goering would get bumped off in seconds, The army would not accept him as leader even with his Great War medals. Himmler could not even command an army group ( he had such a command in 45)

I think a General would have taken over, Possibly Manstein or another basically becoming another Luddendorf.

@Deaths:

As you can tell, I am a Fan of Totenkopf. Their Combat prowess is just Plain Awesome considering the BS it had to do also.

I have read many Books on the German War Machine, And what Germany had Accomplished in the 20 yr timespan between wars, is Just amazing.

Hitler Prior to the war, Was a Great Leader for Germany, He was in Charge basically when Germany was put back on the map Economically, and Militarily.

So what Happens if the Assination on Hitlers life is Successful? Does this mean Himmler is in Charge?  Sounds like instaed of a Assaination attempt, a culling of the leadership Herd was in order.

That’s awesome! I’m also a huge fan of Totenkopf! They held out for 70 some days completely surrounded! Even under heavy losses they pressed hard against the worst parts of the pocket. I can tell we share the same passion and interest in this specific units. Never had an SS unit achieved so many Knights Crosses in such a short amount of time.

But he ordered his armor to halt. It was not engaged to allocation against french or British counter attacks. It was held back IN CASE the British broke and reformed its cut off forces. Hitler was too timid in this campaign, but he trusted his information and generals who convinced him that it was less important. The Hitler of 1941 or 42 would have told Goering to stuff it and sent the panzers to wipe out the remnants. Goering had alot of impact on Hitler, which declined after the London Blitz, but Hitler listened to him in 1940.

To smash the British in Dunkirk, could have been followed immediately by an invasion BEFORE england could get organized, but Hitler didn’t plan on a quick French campaign. The French folded way too fast for anything to be considered.