Allied counter to German fleet-unification

I like the Japan transport in SZ 50 because you can pick up island infantry leaving Japan’s units there where they can be retrieved with built transports.

Fleet unification without the extra submarine is perfectly possible and even a great pain to the allies.

HOWEVER, I’d rather move the SZ 5 fleet to SZ 7 and hope to trap the British fleet there where it can be easily sunk.

@Cmdr:

The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.

A totally wise tactic, Jen. But sadly, It leads you to play axis again and again and again, because all guys here are bidding 8 at least, and most of them 9 and even 10. If you want play allies, say, at least one of 5 games, you must bid at least 8, and better 9, thus risking the naval bid (both sub and trannie are good). I prefer risk and losing some game because it than playing axis 10 times a row. And it’s a pity, because I think the 2-players game is totally balanced with a 7 bid (with 4 or more players, no bid is needed, I think)

@Funcioneta:

@Cmdr:

The only time I let someone take the axis with 8 IPC or more is if I think I’m playing a newbie, or someone who’s playing style I know and have already devised a way to beat them.

A totally wise tactic, Jen. But sadly, It leads you to play axis again and again and again, because all guys here are bidding 8 at least, and most of them 9 and even 10. If you want play allies, say, at least one of 5 games, you must bid at least 8, and better 9, thus risking the naval bid (both sub and trannie are good). I prefer risk and losing some game because it than playing axis 10 times a row. And it’s a pity, because I think the 2-players game is totally balanced with a 7 bid (with 4 or more players, no bid is needed, I think)

If I may, where do you place your 7 bid. Is is UKR, or Lybia, a combination or somewhere else. And why is it totally balanced at 7 vs 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, or another number.

@squirecam:

If I may, where do you place your 7 bid. Is is UKR, or Lybia, a combination or somewhere else. And why is it totally balanced at 7 vs 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, or another number.

So anyways - 8’s a key number.  Once you can pop another Axis transport on the board, you can change the game a pretty good bit by either 1) allowing Germany good odds of taking and holding Anglo-Egypt past UK1 followed by G2 tank dash through Africa, or 2) speeding Japan progress in Asia with a transport bid, or 3) adding another German sub in the Atlantic to try to wipe out the British battleship/transport/Russian sub northwest of London - any number of more interesting plans.  But you do need 8 IPC for anything naval.

Depending on the bid placement rules - that is, if you can place more than one unit per territory, 6, 7, and 9 are interesting too.  6 gets you 2 infantry, 7 gets you infantry/artillery, 9 gets you three infantry.  These can help out at, say, Libya (to hit Anglo-Egypt on G1, freeing the German Med fleet to sail west for possible fleet unification G2), French Indochina (to challenge India or to help out against Sinkiang on J1), Ukraine (to prevent R1 Ukr/West Russia attack that has good odds of killing a German fighter), Belorussia (allowing Russia to hit Ukr/West Russia, but setting the stage for a hard early counter).

So why isn’t 5 good enough?  Because it’s just one ground unit, not two.  And once you start hitting 10 IPC, you’re talking about 2 inf 1 artillery or 2 tanks, or even a rogue fighter, and that’s really pretty good.

I personally think that if you’re allowed to place more than one bid unit in a territory, 8 is the limit.  Otherwise, you see stuff like 3 inf at French Indochina for Turbo India, or 3 inf at Libya for G2 definitive tank dash through Africa.

Func:

Understandable consideration.  Though, I’ve not really had too much of a problem getting the allies now and again since many of the players I play like to bid 6 IPC for the Axis (or 13-14 IPC if playing FIDA.)  Although, most of my games this summer have been tournament games at AAMC and that may have a lot to do with it.

Squire:

My 7 IPC bid generally ends up as Infantry, Artillery in Libya however, I have tried Armor to FIC and 2 IPC to Germany. (42 IPC allows Germany to start the game with 14 Infantry being built.  Sure you have a much lower chance at taking Egypt, but man does Russia have a problem on it’s hands by Germany 3!)

Bunnies (aka Hassenfeffer) makes a good point.  8 IPC for a German Transport in SZ 14 is just plain awesome.  This allows you to pose a significant invasion of Caucasus on Germany 1 if Ukraine is NOT taken by Russia and that almost forces Russia to sacrifice 2 armor one way or another. (I personally do not feel the 10 IPC for the armor is worth the 3 IPC for Ukraine, but many players do.)

Not to mention, the extra transport, while a threat to Caucasus, does not have to go there, you can easily take Trans-Jordan and Egypt or just Egypt or just Trans-Jordan closing or reversing the canal on Germany 1. (And let me tell you, reversing the canal is very wicked since Germany can now take India on Germany 2!  I love it when Germany gets India, Australia and New Zealand, maybe even Madagascar!)

10 IPC I have never seen in a full placement bid, though.  9 IPC I have and is generally used to bolster your defenses in Ukraine by 3 infantry making the Russian attack there all but impossible.

Jenn wrote:

Squire:

My 7 IPC bid generally ends up as Infantry, Artillery in Libya

BPW wrote:
@Bunnies:

So anyways - 8’s a key number.  Once you can pop another Axis transport on the board, you can change the game a pretty good bit…

Depending on the bid placement rules - that is, if you can place more than one unit per territory, 6, 7, and 9 are interesting too.  6 gets you 2 infantry, 7 gets you infantry/artillery, 9 gets you three infantry.

So why isn’t 5 good enough?  Because it’s just one ground unit, not two.

This was the point I was trying to get at. There is no “exact” number.

Jen would place 7 in Lybia. Ok. That makes Germany able to both take Egypt and sail the med fleet west.

But a 5 tank bid would do the same thing. The small possibility of UK getting 3 hits from Egypt is there, but it is not likely. So what else does it do?

Well, it make Egypt have 1 more unit vs the UK counter. Yet if UK is going KGF, they will bring bomber and fighter and 3 inf anyway. So you could still lose your Egypt force.

Sure, you could still sail the med fleet east, and bring 2 more units, but then what is the real difference between and inf/art and a tank bid. Just 1 unit.

But if that’s true (and it is) then there is really no difference between going “east” and having an art or inf bid, and a 7 bid. In one case, you bring 5 units to Egypt, in the second, you bring 6.

Are you saying that that ONE unit makes a real difference?

I know it doesnt, because I would place 1 inf in UKR and 1 art in Lybia. If UKR is attacked, the inf bid allows for the chance at 2 tanks vs 3 remaining. Yet that is no guarantee, and the inf bid there could easily be useless.

The point, which I have always said, is to be good enough to win as the axis against equal opponents 40-50% of the time, without a bid. The game is ALREADY set up to give the axis a 40% chance straight up between equals (or if new players, likely better % for the axis).

The bid unit generally makes one or two first round attacks a bit better or bit worse % wise. Thats with a 3 bid or a 7 bid.

I agree 8 is a transport, which allows MUCH different attacks than normal, and thus is too high.

But there is no real difference between a good players ability to win equally as the axis with a bid of 3 as a bid of 7. Its just a % help in one battle, and the game will turn on the results of MANY small battles, not one first round move.

I’ve tried placing the Prebid transport in sz50 and with the Borneo fleet further west, and they do have some good targets, but the advantage of taking Hawaii on J1 means that Japan has eliminated 3 USA fighter planes, (I suspect that the China attack is successful too) 4 infantry, and reduced them by 3 IPC! Most likely for some time to come. Also, Japan now has a bomber base within reach of the west coast, and a staging point for invasion of not only the west coast but Austalia, NZ, Alaska, West Canada, and Mexico! If Japan stages two Transports, and a DD and a fully loaded carrier at Hawaii, the USA player must defend at a minimum, the West Coast, and probibly Alaska as well.
These resources are delayed a turn going to Europe, that is an extra turn that Germany has to turn up the heat on Russia, and probibly expand in Africa. All for the price of a prebuilt Transport to Japan, who IMO, needs it more than Germany anyway.  :wink:
And what is my J1 purchase you ask, why 2 transports, 2 tanks and an Artillery. Just make sure that the transports are out of range of the UK sub, their DD, and that sneaky bomber of theirs somewhere in Russia or Novo or the Caucuses. sneaky #&+* UK  :evil:

I agree, Ivan, the destruction of not two, but three American fighters significantly changes the power America has in the first bit of the game.

Also, it secures the Japanese fleet in SZ 52 a bit more, since the American fighter in E. USA cannot hit the SZ 52 fleet anymore (Hawaii is not a valid landing zone since it is now Japanese.)  That means Japan can feel more secure losing the destroyer and submarine if it comes too it. (Without the destroyer there, and Hawaii a valid landing zone, a counter attack becomes a stronger option for America, not necessarily a good one, but a stronger one.)

Also, yes, the 5 IPC tank in Algeria/Libya bid is enough to take Egypt without using the Battleship and Transport from SZ 14.  I feel that the infantry, artillery (or just two infantry and an IPC to Japan) is better.  It’s got more punch, but more importantly, it’s two units not one making liberation of Egypt harder.

Also, I have yet to play a game in recent memory where England failed to score three hits in round 1 against my attacking Germans.  But that could just be perception because that result is hugely devastating to Germany. ^_^

Unless you were an utter newbie, and I just didnt care, I would never give anyone a transport. That is not only an excessive bid, it makes unique attacks possible that otherwise were not before.

But more importantly, I think it is unfair to new players. Playing with such a crutch, you dont learn to think and manage your resources as well as you would otherwise.

@squirecam:

This was the point I was trying to get at. There is no “exact” number.

Given a particular ruleset, given rules for bid placement, sure there’s an exact number.  The number you need to have a good probability of swinging enough of the initial minor battles in your favor to give the Axis a roughly 50% chance of victory.

Are you saying that that ONE unit makes a real difference?

They certainly did at Thermopylae.

Anyways, 42, you know what I mean?  Now Zaphod Beeblebrox, he would understand; he’s one froody cat.

Also, I would give the Axis a transport in the bid, even with tech going into effect instantly.  Against most players, anyways.

@Bunnies:

Given a particular ruleset, given rules for bid placement, sure there’s an exact number.  The number you need to have a good probability of swinging enough of the initial minor battles in your favor to give the Axis a roughly 50% chance of victory.

Place the bid in Lybia, and you have a 50% chance at a bid of 3 to 5. The game % outcome difference between those bids are minimal.

Thus, there is no “one” perfect number.

I’d be easier to see a higher bid if it had to be split between the two powers and/or all go to Japan.  I am just very wary of Germany starting iwth two transports in SZ 14. (Submarine in SZ 8 can be dealt with very easily by just taking Norway with Russia.)

I won’t give anybody more than 12 points of a pre-bid, (full placement). Other than that, I’m not afraid to play anybody. :-)

@Corbeau:

I do like that Japan transport bid idea too but myself would prolly place it in range of India/Australia for a J1 take.

I was confusing Jen’s transport bid with a Med transport bid, which I’m rapidly becoming a fan of. I never thought of landing in both AE and TJ. You’re probably gonna be left with 2arm in AE. With just 2inf 1ftr I’d still counter if I was UK. And I hardly ever find that TJ is safe (especially if you land your bomber there). If it comes to the AE fight, it lands in the Belgian Congo with the ftr. Taking TJ opens up the canal, but I don’t think it puts much more pressure on the bomber.

Also, if you bid a transport, it sorta seems like a waste to use them to take India. Japan can take Ind rather quickly anyway. A landing in Madagascar seems pretty nice, but once again, a bit of a waste unless it’s wide open and one lone transport can do the trick. The UK’s Indian fleet would have to be pretty much dead by, though if the ac goes east on UK1, that does pretty much kill that fleet.

Two transports can do a lot to hold Africa, deter Allied landings in Algeria, provide fodder for a major fleet battle and threaten (or even take) Caucasus.

@hyogoetophile:

@Corbeau:

I do like that Japan transport bid idea too but myself would prolly place it in range of India/Australia for a J1 take.

I was confusing Jen’s transport bid with a Med transport bid, which I’m rapidly becoming a fan of. I never thought of landing in both AE and TJ, but (and I’m going off Low Luck odds here) how do you take both? TJ is very takeable, but 1inf 1arm 1ftr 1bmb vs 1inf 1arm 1ftr? Even a UK1 counter of 2inf 1ftr could likely retake AE.

With the med transport bid, you’ve got 2 boats.  I assume one trn lands in egypt giving 2 inf, 2 arm, fig, bomb, while the other lands in Trj with inf, rt vs. inf.

On average you’ll take egy w/ the 2 tanks remaining, and you’ve got about a 50/50 shot at having both unit survive in trj.  If both tanks are there, and UK can only bring 2 infantry, their odds of retaking EGY are not great unless they bring the bomber in as well, which means they can’t use it up north for a couple turns.

@TimTheEnchanter:

If both tanks are there, and UK can only bring 2 infantry, their odds of retaking EGY are not great unless they bring the bomber in as well, which means they can’t use it up north for a couple turns.

Big swing here between LL and dice:

LL 2inf 1ftr vs 2arm = 75% chance of killing the armor and keeping your fighter
dice = 64% chance of winning with the fighter

If you’re talking about taking the ground, then the chances are a lot worse. But if TJ’s getting hit and Germany’s got two transports, I’d be grateful just to bomb those tanks so they can’t do a blitzey-blitz of Africa on G2.

I hardly ever see the UK bomber in AE anymore, probably because I UnBaltic a lot. Anyone else seeing this also? The old 1bmb 1ftr 3inf counter is like…gone.

With a TRN build, you do NOT split your Germany forces.  You make the biggest stack in Egypt that you can, and THEN move out.

3 INF, 1 ART, 2 ARM, 1 FIG, 1 BOM against 1 INF, 1 ARM, 1 FIG.
That gives Germany 1 INF, 1 ART, 2 ARM in Egypt, and 1 INF, 1 ART, 1 FIG, 1 BOM in Libya

Go ahead UK, hit me with 3 INF, 1 FIG, 1 BOM.  You average clearing without taking, and then I wipe out your FIG and BOM for minimal cost, and drop 4 more units in Africa as Germany the next turn while Japan walks into India for free (or for minimal cost).

@ncscswitch:

With a TRN build, you do NOT split your Germany forces.  You make the biggest stack in Egypt that you can, and THEN move out.

Just to be clear, I wasn’t saying I would recommend splitting the german landing forces, just that if you did it (as someone suggested), you wouldn’t necessarily be completely outmatched in egypt on G1.

I like Germany to get India if possible.  Japan can use it, but honestly, Germany can use it more.  Especially if Germany can also get Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand and, dare I hope, Hawaii too. (Did it before, but it took a while!)

Between that, and Africa (and you’ll almost certainly have Africa entrenched before leaving to get the other stuff) Germany’s got a really nice pay check.

@ste:

One further question belonging this topic: How is it if Germany does not buy the carrier. This means that Germany did not spend any money in the sea but made the same attack with the med-fleet in WMD (and took Gibraltar). The attack on EGY is again only with the bid plus some air from Germany.

How would you react? What are good counters in this case? Maybe the same moves as already mentioned? I would prefer to spend less money in the sea with UK in this case. The immediate attack against the German Baltic Navy is on the other side very very risky.

Thanks for replies!
Stefan

UK can go air, 2-3 ftrs or even drop a trn.  Unification isn’t a threat, but with no additional naval buy Germany may employ some type of Channel Dash strat, where they try to thin out the Allied ships and open them up to a G2 air attack.

I still go AC with the US, but maybe only 1 ftr (or bom).  The Baltic fleet dies on UK 2 (4-5 ftrs + bom) and the Med fleet dies in rd 3 or 4.

As for the bids brought up, an 8 bid is not scary at all.  It may change things but a trn/sub bid is weaker than an inf/arm on the front lines.

If your intent is to attack Egy, just bid the units to Lib, otherwise your pulling 4 units from Europe and still not going to be able to threaten the Atlantic.  If you want to attack Egy and Trj the inf/arm is still better (bid for Egy, trn for TJ), or instead you can use them to attack and take Gib (bid fro Egy trn/bb for Gib).
The trn bid essentially locks Germany into having a BB and 2 trns in Sz 15 at the end of G1.

A sub bid for the Atlantic is not much help since Egy is now opened to a rd 1 dicey and is a green light for an aggressive Russia.  Sure you can play nice in the Atlantic, but your likely to see Russia go Wrus/Ukr (seeing the sub placed in Sz 12), while UK will easily counter Egy.  Russia probably holds Ukr permanently by round 3.

Japanese 8 bids are typically weaker than German 8 bids.  While another trn is fun, it again doesn’t help with Egy and essentially locks in very specific moves for Germany.  Having a vast Pacific Empire won’t help if Germany is boxed in by round 4 and the Allies simply retreated to Novo/Kaz in the East.  It still takes Japan 3-4 turns to get new units to the front lines and they’ll still need an IC.

You are much better off boosting Germany early giving Japan the much needed time to get its war machine up an running.

Even with Unrestricted placement I won’t bid less than 9.

I will say I don’t think new players should start with bids, or immediately jump into 7,8, or 9 bids just b/c they read that may be the going rate.  Bid amount is directly related to how well you can coordinate all 3 Allies play and how well you work as one unit.  The better you are at that the more you can give up.