Allied counter to German fleet-unification

[Crazy Ivan]

I’ve tried placing the Prebid transport in sz50 and with the Borneo fleet further west, and they do have some good targets, but the advantage of taking Hawaii on J1 means that Japan has eliminated 3 USA fighter planes, (I suspect that the China attack is successful too) 4 infantry, and reduced them by 3 IPC! Most likely for some time to come. Also, Japan now has a bomber base within reach of the west coast, and a staging point for invasion of not only the west coast but Austalia, NZ, Alaska, West Canada, and Mexico! If Japan stages two Transports, and a DD and a fully loaded carrier at Hawaii, the USA player must defend at a minimum, the West Coast, and probibly Alaska as well.
These resources are delayed a turn going to Europe, that is an extra turn that Germany has to turn up the heat on Russia, and probibly expand in Africa. All for the price of a prebuilt Transport to Japan, who IMO, needs it more than Germany anyway.  :wink:
And what is my J1 purchase you ask, why 2 transports, 2 tanks and an Artillery. Just make sure that the transports are out of range of the UK sub, their DD, and that sneaky bomber of theirs somewhere in Russia or Novo or the Caucuses. sneaky #&+* UK  :evil:

[Jennifer]

I agree, Ivan, the destruction of not two, but three American fighters significantly changes the power America has in the first bit of the game.

Also, it secures the Japanese fleet in SZ 52 a bit more, since the American fighter in E. USA cannot hit the SZ 52 fleet anymore (Hawaii is not a valid landing zone since it is now Japanese.)  That means Japan can feel more secure losing the destroyer and submarine if it comes too it. (Without the destroyer there, and Hawaii a valid landing zone, a counter attack becomes a stronger option for America, not necessarily a good one, but a stronger one.)

Also, yes, the 5 IPC tank in Algeria/Libya bid is enough to take Egypt without using the Battleship and Transport from SZ 14.  I feel that the infantry, artillery (or just two infantry and an IPC to Japan) is better.  It’s got more punch, but more importantly, it’s two units not one making liberation of Egypt harder.

Also, I have yet to play a game in recent memory where England failed to score three hits in round 1 against my attacking Germans.  But that could just be perception because that result is hugely devastating to Germany. ^_^

[squirecam]

Unless you were an utter newbie, and I just didnt care, I would never give anyone a transport. That is not only an excessive bid, it makes unique attacks possible that otherwise were not before.

But more importantly, I think it is unfair to new players. Playing with such a crutch, you dont learn to think and manage your resources as well as you would otherwise.

[newpaintbrush]

@squirecam:

This was the point I was trying to get at. There is no “exact” number.

Given a particular ruleset, given rules for bid placement, sure there’s an exact number.  The number you need to have a good probability of swinging enough of the initial minor battles in your favor to give the Axis a roughly 50% chance of victory.

Are you saying that that ONE unit makes a real difference?

They certainly did at Thermopylae.

Anyways, 42, you know what I mean?  Now Zaphod Beeblebrox, he would understand; he’s one froody cat.

Also, I would give the Axis a transport in the bid, even with tech going into effect instantly.  Against most players, anyways.

[squirecam]

@Bunnies:

Given a particular ruleset, given rules for bid placement, sure there’s an exact number.  The number you need to have a good probability of swinging enough of the initial minor battles in your favor to give the Axis a roughly 50% chance of victory.

Place the bid in Lybia, and you have a 50% chance at a bid of 3 to 5. The game % outcome difference between those bids are minimal.

Thus, there is no “one” perfect number.

[Jennifer]

I’d be easier to see a higher bid if it had to be split between the two powers and/or all go to Japan.  I am just very wary of Germany starting iwth two transports in SZ 14. (Submarine in SZ 8 can be dealt with very easily by just taking Norway with Russia.)

[Crazy Ivan]

I won’t give anybody more than 12 points of a pre-bid, (full placement). Other than that, I’m not afraid to play anybody. :-)

[hyogoetophile]

@Corbeau:

I do like that Japan transport bid idea too but myself would prolly place it in range of India/Australia for a J1 take.

I was confusing Jen’s transport bid with a Med transport bid, which I’m rapidly becoming a fan of. I never thought of landing in both AE and TJ. You’re probably gonna be left with 2arm in AE. With just 2inf 1ftr I’d still counter if I was UK. And I hardly ever find that TJ is safe (especially if you land your bomber there). If it comes to the AE fight, it lands in the Belgian Congo with the ftr. Taking TJ opens up the canal, but I don’t think it puts much more pressure on the bomber.

Also, if you bid a transport, it sorta seems like a waste to use them to take India. Japan can take Ind rather quickly anyway. A landing in Madagascar seems pretty nice, but once again, a bit of a waste unless it’s wide open and one lone transport can do the trick. The UK’s Indian fleet would have to be pretty much dead by, though if the ac goes east on UK1, that does pretty much kill that fleet.

Two transports can do a lot to hold Africa, deter Allied landings in Algeria, provide fodder for a major fleet battle and threaten (or even take) Caucasus.

[TimTheEnchanter]

@hyogoetophile:

@Corbeau:

I do like that Japan transport bid idea too but myself would prolly place it in range of India/Australia for a J1 take.

I was confusing Jen’s transport bid with a Med transport bid, which I’m rapidly becoming a fan of. I never thought of landing in both AE and TJ, but (and I’m going off Low Luck odds here) how do you take both? TJ is very takeable, but 1inf 1arm 1ftr 1bmb vs 1inf 1arm 1ftr? Even a UK1 counter of 2inf 1ftr could likely retake AE.

With the med transport bid, you’ve got 2 boats.  I assume one trn lands in egypt giving 2 inf, 2 arm, fig, bomb, while the other lands in Trj with inf, rt vs. inf.

On average you’ll take egy w/ the 2 tanks remaining, and you’ve got about a 50/50 shot at having both unit survive in trj.  If both tanks are there, and UK can only bring 2 infantry, their odds of retaking EGY are not great unless they bring the bomber in as well, which means they can’t use it up north for a couple turns.

[hyogoetophile]

@TimTheEnchanter:

If both tanks are there, and UK can only bring 2 infantry, their odds of retaking EGY are not great unless they bring the bomber in as well, which means they can’t use it up north for a couple turns.

Big swing here between LL and dice:

LL 2inf 1ftr vs 2arm = 75% chance of killing the armor and keeping your fighter
dice = 64% chance of winning with the fighter

If you’re talking about taking the ground, then the chances are a lot worse. But if TJ’s getting hit and Germany’s got two transports, I’d be grateful just to bomb those tanks so they can’t do a blitzey-blitz of Africa on G2.

I hardly ever see the UK bomber in AE anymore, probably because I UnBaltic a lot. Anyone else seeing this also? The old 1bmb 1ftr 3inf counter is like…gone.

[Guest]

With a TRN build, you do NOT split your Germany forces.  You make the biggest stack in Egypt that you can, and THEN move out.

3 INF, 1 ART, 2 ARM, 1 FIG, 1 BOM against 1 INF, 1 ARM, 1 FIG.
That gives Germany 1 INF, 1 ART, 2 ARM in Egypt, and 1 INF, 1 ART, 1 FIG, 1 BOM in Libya

Go ahead UK, hit me with 3 INF, 1 FIG, 1 BOM.  You average clearing without taking, and then I wipe out your FIG and BOM for minimal cost, and drop 4 more units in Africa as Germany the next turn while Japan walks into India for free (or for minimal cost).

[TimTheEnchanter]

@ncscswitch:

With a TRN build, you do NOT split your Germany forces.  You make the biggest stack in Egypt that you can, and THEN move out.

Just to be clear, I wasn’t saying I would recommend splitting the german landing forces, just that if you did it (as someone suggested), you wouldn’t necessarily be completely outmatched in egypt on G1.

[Jennifer]

I like Germany to get India if possible.  Japan can use it, but honestly, Germany can use it more.  Especially if Germany can also get Australia, Madagascar, New Zealand and, dare I hope, Hawaii too. (Did it before, but it took a while!)

Between that, and Africa (and you’ll almost certainly have Africa entrenched before leaving to get the other stuff) Germany’s got a really nice pay check.

[DarthMaximus]

@ste:

One further question belonging this topic: How is it if Germany does not buy the carrier. This means that Germany did not spend any money in the sea but made the same attack with the med-fleet in WMD (and took Gibraltar). The attack on EGY is again only with the bid plus some air from Germany.

How would you react? What are good counters in this case? Maybe the same moves as already mentioned? I would prefer to spend less money in the sea with UK in this case. The immediate attack against the German Baltic Navy is on the other side very very risky.

Thanks for replies!
Stefan

UK can go air, 2-3 ftrs or even drop a trn.  Unification isn’t a threat, but with no additional naval buy Germany may employ some type of Channel Dash strat, where they try to thin out the Allied ships and open them up to a G2 air attack.

I still go AC with the US, but maybe only 1 ftr (or bom).  The Baltic fleet dies on UK 2 (4-5 ftrs + bom) and the Med fleet dies in rd 3 or 4.

As for the bids brought up, an 8 bid is not scary at all.  It may change things but a trn/sub bid is weaker than an inf/arm on the front lines.

If your intent is to attack Egy, just bid the units to Lib, otherwise your pulling 4 units from Europe and still not going to be able to threaten the Atlantic.  If you want to attack Egy and Trj the inf/arm is still better (bid for Egy, trn for TJ), or instead you can use them to attack and take Gib (bid fro Egy trn/bb for Gib).
The trn bid essentially locks Germany into having a BB and 2 trns in Sz 15 at the end of G1.

A sub bid for the Atlantic is not much help since Egy is now opened to a rd 1 dicey and is a green light for an aggressive Russia.  Sure you can play nice in the Atlantic, but your likely to see Russia go Wrus/Ukr (seeing the sub placed in Sz 12), while UK will easily counter Egy.  Russia probably holds Ukr permanently by round 3.

Japanese 8 bids are typically weaker than German 8 bids.  While another trn is fun, it again doesn’t help with Egy and essentially locks in very specific moves for Germany.  Having a vast Pacific Empire won’t help if Germany is boxed in by round 4 and the Allies simply retreated to Novo/Kaz in the East.  It still takes Japan 3-4 turns to get new units to the front lines and they’ll still need an IC.

You are much better off boosting Germany early giving Japan the much needed time to get its war machine up an running.

Even with Unrestricted placement I won’t bid less than 9.

I will say I don’t think new players should start with bids, or immediately jump into 7,8, or 9 bids just b/c they read that may be the going rate.  Bid amount is directly related to how well you can coordinate all 3 Allies play and how well you work as one unit.  The better you are at that the more you can give up.

[Jennifer]

I still feel, in my opinion, that a German fleet unification threat is more easily countered with Aircraft Carrier, Submarine and 2 Infantry buy and a unification of allied forces in SZ 8.

This should give you significant punch on your assault of the Unified German fleet if needed, but plenty of defensive power if Germany should waste her efforts attacking you. (Submarines have twice the punch of a defending transport and infinitely more attacking power than an attacking transport!)

[Guest]

If Germany is waging an economic war with the Allies in the early rounds, the TRN bid to SZ14 is better than land units to Libya.  It helps defend your fleet from less than 3 Allied aircraft, gets you 4 units per turn plus BB shot into Africa, and allows Germany to argue with the Allies for a few turns in Africa.

The cost of doing so is offset by the extra revenue to Germany (extra cash is about equal to the expenditures for units to Africa).  The benefit to Germany is the cash and units lost to UK.  It also keeps the Allies tied up with Algeria landings a bit longer, delaying the Allied shuck into Archangel.

[Jennifer]

Oh I agree, the transport bid in SZ 14 is superior to ground units in Africa.  Mainly because you’re probably only getting two ground units anyway, and the transport bid can bring that on the first round and each subsequent round it is built.

Furthermore, the transport is already built, that means you don’t have to keep your med fleet in SZ 14 for a round to build one.

[DarthMaximus]

I view it as weaker b/c it eliminates options for Germany on G1.

If you bid a trn you MUST then use both to attack Egy.  Splitting them (as pointed out earlier) is a bad idea.

If you bid 1 inf/1 arm you now have the option to take both Egy and Gib.  You could of course just do Egy heavy.  In which case you can still wage the Economic War as Switch put it b/c Egy still isn’t counterable on UK1.  Also with the Afr bid you are free to potentially attack Cauc should Russia 1 go bad, while still having a good shot at Egy.  With the trn bid you obviously could attack Cauc as well and even bring in more troops but again this leaves a big question mark on the G1 Egy battle since in would be a bad idea to leave an unprotected trn in Sz 16.

I’m also not sure Germany can afford to transport 4 units a turn (in rds 2-3) to Afr.  I used to love the trn bid to sz 14 but just found that I perfer the straight PAfr bid so I have the maximum amount of options on G1.

It is sort of moot now in terms of my bidding strat, since I’ll typically bid 9 now and just go for 3 inf with either all three in Lib or 2 in Lib and 1 to Europe or something.

[Guest]

I simply do not see 2 TRN, 1 BB in SZ15 as being a BAD thing for Germany.

Always remember that the easiest way for the Axis to win is to smash Russia.  And a 2 TRN/BB fleet in SZ15 does several things:
1.  Is a fleet that is not easilly killed by Allied air
2.  Is WAY out of position and range to be attacked by Allied navy
3.  Wreaks havoc with UK income and forces the Allies to invest heavily in Africa
4.  Is always in range of Ukraine and Caucuses when Germany is ready for the main push on Moscow.

[Jennifer]

I don’t see how it can be bad in SZ 15, in SZ 13 maybe because it means you did not take Egypt (probably anyway.)

I agree however, I dislike being locked into moves and worse telegraphing my intent.  However, the extra transport I think gives Germany enough of a threat to Caucasus (forcing Russia to protect it, instead of just blocking by taking Ukraine) it’s worth it.