Which side has an advantage?

@JWW:

I believe that the axis, with an 9 bid, still need to have sound strats, make no mistakes and require some luck to beat me.

yes, it still comes down to 3 on 2, so the allies have that Ace in their pocket.

Another part of the ‘no mistakes’ that you refer to is bringing the right number of units into a battle, expecially in the eastern european theatre of war.  often times the allies can go ‘cheap’ with aircraft and ground units and if one allied player fails to kill/take, then next reaps the benefits.  Germany doesn’t get this sort of ‘rebound’ /  tip-in play with Japan.

Then there are those of us who think the game is pretty well balanced (apart from OOB NAs  :-P), and regard the bid as completely unnecessary, and ridiculous as well for that matter. By the time you get down to 5-6 IPCs, which some people can’t play with less than that, we are talking about 1-2 infantry or a tank. To be honest the usefulness of that, while nice in the beginning, is hardly enough to tip the balance significantly in any way shape or form in comparison to having some good tactics and long range strategy. In fact luck will have more effect than that. Germany starts out with 10 tanks and ~25 infantry last I checked, another one will hardly be the difference between balance and imbalance IMO.

@Gerbilkit:

Then there are those of us who think the game is pretty well balanced (apart from OOB NAs  :-P), and regard the bid as completely unnecessary, and ridiculous as well for that matter. By the time you get down to 5-6 IPCs, which some people can’t play with less than that, we are talking about 1-2 infantry or a tank. To be honest the usefulness of that, while nice in the beginning, is hardly enough to tip the balance significantly in any way shape or form in comparison to having some good tactics and long range strategy. In fact luck will have more effect than that. Germany starts out with 10 tanks and ~25 infantry last I checked, another one will hardly be the difference between balance and imbalance IMO.

Well I beg to differ.

An extra 2 units in Africa keeps UK from counter attacking AES UK1.
There is a huge money swing as a result.  No, not the mere $2 that is AES, I refer to the rapid expansion of Germany that would occur on G2 if those forces are left unmolested.  Also, Germany usually needs to ship more units to Africa G2 if AES if countered on UK1.  Other wise, Germany might use those troops in Europe or via the transport to Ukraine or such G2.

I can only agree. This game is not all about numbers of units, don’t take me wrong the numbers of units count in the long run, but more important is position e.g. 20 german arm in Weu are not worth as much as the same 20 arm in Ukr,  so 1 or 2 units placed at the crucial points on the startup map, make all the diffrence.

IMO the german player would have to strech himself quite thin to retake Ukr, do Egy and kill the BB if he had no bid units.

Also an extra inf in Ukraine can often translate into a surviving fighter which will make A LOT of difference in turn 1 and throughout the game.

A Russia round 1 attack on Ukraine is a dangerous weapon. It kills the fighter but Russia generally loses their tanks in the process, and can’t hold the territory. Trying to go for West Russia on the same round can be really risky. Trust me I’ve been bit by this as Russia.

There’s a simple solution for the problem in Africa. Use the transport to drop another tank and infantry down there, use the battleship and maybe another fighter to clear the destroyer.  IMO taking Anglo Egypt on round 1, with at least 2 tanks is critical to the German victory. If you fail to close the Suez, and fail to kill that fighter and tank, you will regret it the rest of the game. Next UK turn they can have an aircraft carrier, two destroyers, a transport, and two fighters in the Med. Trust me this is the last thing you want to deal with as Germany. If you want you can even have a fighter and Bomber assist in Anglo.  Then have the sub from SZ8 and a couple of fighters hit the battleship. How many fighters depends on how lucky you’re feeling.  :-D

On G1 the Germans can only hit Ukraine if it has been taken, or take Karelia pretty much, since Archangel is out of range and West Russia often has 9 infantry + tanks + artillery.  So you’re really not losing much sending your aircraft out of Europe for round one, as long as you get them back quickly for the next round.

FYI the bid is a faily solid concensus from players here as well as TripleA

@Gerbilkit:

Then there are those of us who think the game is pretty well balanced (apart from OOB NAs  :-P), and regard the bid as completely unnecessary, and ridiculous as well for that matter.

I think you just need to be exposed to a wider player group.
Have you played online before?

@Gerbilkit:

There’s a simple solution for the problem in Africa. Use the transport to drop another tank and infantry down there, use the battleship and maybe another fighter to clear the destroyer.

We know there is a transport. But it just won’t cut it. Try AACalc.

Germany takes Egypt
35% 2 Arm, 1 Fig
14% 1 Arm, 1 Fig

UK would counterattack on UK1 with 3 Inf 1 Fig
83%

No, they would not.

And yes I have played online. But primarily as the Allies.  I spend most of my time outside the game working on Axis strategies, and testing their feasibility on triple a.

You forget, I’m not pitting 2 tnks, and 2 inf vs 1 inf 1 tnk and 1 ftr in Anglo. I’m adding a fighter and bomber to my attack as well. The UK is dead, and my two tanks are still alive and kicking. (yet to run to the dice in a situation where this doesn’t happen, I often lose 2 inf, not always though).

Believe me I know how significant Anglo is. I got to have so much fun playing Britain when the other player didn’t take it.  :-D

Oh and I just tested the taking of Ukraine and West Russia round one for the Russians.  With a lack of offensive firepower in West Russia the battle was able to go on longer, and Russia lost 4 inf as a result.  In Ukraine as I predicted the Russian tanks were destroyed, cause they were left behind after the battle exposed to the German counterattack. Which I did with only inf and planes cause I didn’t want to lose any tanks. This turned out to be a lousy plan as without aircraft support in Anglo (forgot about that, don’t remember so well when I’m just testing scenarios and not playing a game).  So Germany would probably have to drop a couple tanks. But fewer than Russia, and I still took Anglo on G1 and took out the entire British med fleet.

This was with above average luck in Ukraine by the way, as the Germans went down in one round and the Russians didn’t lose much. I’ve played Russia before and tried a R1 attack only to have it blow up in my face when the fighter and maybe a tank survive and my attacking force is killed.

So it’s not necessarily a horrible strategy, but it’s risky, it hurts Russia a lot to lose those tanks right away, and Germany is hardly crippled.

I’m not necessarily saying you’re all wrong. You are probably much more experienced than I am. I’m just not not convinced the Axis need a bonus, unless the allied players are more experienced.

None of that stopping the UK from retaking Egypt on round one, which is what a lot of bids are based on.

@a44bigdog:

None of that stopping the UK from retaking Egypt on round one, which is what a lot of bids are based on.

Um yeah it does. Round two the UK, at best, are pitting an Infantry and a fighter against 2 tnks, if not an infantry or two as well. Unless you brought in the Infantry from Persia, in that case India is going to die in the next round unless you have Colonial Garrison. And if you have Colonial Garrison that fighter should really be helping harass the Japanese.  Usually it’s going to be an inf or two and the fighter, vs two tanks and maybe some infantry as well.

Oh and I fail to see how a bid changes anything. Most bids average out around 9 right? That’s an extra tank and infantry for Anglo G1 we’ll say.  Wow that’s exactly the same as I brought in with the transport. Despite the fact that I rarely see that transport dropping troops in Anglo round one, usually it’s taking Gibraltar while the battleship takes out the UK battleship.  So in most games I’m guessing the bid just takes the place of some different axis strategy. Oh and with a bid of ~9 you can’t play both sides. Meaning you can’t have infantry in Ukraine AND more troops in Africa. It’s either one or the other.  So maybe I’m missing something, maybe balance is far more delicate than I would have thought reasonable to consider. I just can’t see how the bid is necessary.

Well when I get some time maybe I’ll try a game sometime as Axis, see if someone goes and kicks my butt and make me eat my words and wish for a bid.  :-D

UK round one. Infantry from Trans-Jordan, 2 Infantry from India via transport, fighter from Indian Ocean Carrier, and bomber from England. Versus 1 Infantry 2 Tanks the out come is 92.8% for the attacker. Give Germany an extra infantry and it is still 71.1% in UK’s favor. Leaving the Suez open and going after Gibraltar round 1 with Germany is not a good move.

@Gerbilkit:

Um yeah it does. Round two the UK, at best, are pitting an Infantry and a fighter against 2 tnks, if not an infantry or two as well. Unless you brought in the Infantry from Persia, in that case India is going to die in the next round unless you have Colonial Garrison.

Ah I see it now.  :-)
You are thinking UK can only attack with 1 or 2 Inf.
While we are saying UK would attack with 3 Inf.
I guess it depends on whether its KGF and KJF.

KGF is more established. KJF is less popular is still being explored by the community.

Oh and I fail to see how a bid changes anything. Most bids average out around 9 right? That’s an extra tank and infantry for Anglo G1 we’ll say.  Wow that’s exactly the same as I brought in with the transport.

Um, it makes a world of difference.
We are comparing…

Libya + air force —> Egypt
Libya + air force + transport —> Egypt
Libya + air force + bid —> Egypt
Libya + air force + transport + bid —> Egypt

Well when I get some time maybe I’ll try a game sometime as Axis, see if someone goes and kicks my butt and make me eat my words and wish for a bid.

When you get time you could head over to the league.
I believe you can join any time. Just post at the find players section inside the league section.
Just bid 0. You’ll almost certainly get Axis. :wink:

You never know. You might become famous for showing the people Axis does not need bid.

Play me with no bid. Ill kick ur ass guaranteed.

Um… I’m confused. How the hell are you stopping the Japanese from taking India round one if you’re pulling 2 infantry out, unless you have Colonial Garrison. And if you do have colonial garrison every single unit you have is needed for fighting the japanese for the most part, not fighting Germany.  You send your transport without any naval support and my aircraft will kill it. You send it with the rest of the navy the Japanese can occupy the Indian ocean and then India will fall easily Colonial Garrison or no, and the British fleet is effectively neutralized. I wouldn’t like that strategy as a UK player.  I’d rather postpone the recapture of Anglo till the Germans are tied up with the Russians more, or let the US handle it. Got to get some tanks produced from Colonial Garrison and beat back the Japanese a bit before any can be spared if this is KJF. 
If you send your battleship to take out the UK battleship and unify your fleet in SZ7 on R2 then you have to take Gibraltar or the RAF will kill your battleship.  :-P

I don’t always have time for a full game, which is why I don’t have time to play online so often. I’d love to play without a bid when I can though, losing winning, who cares. It’s about the carnage.

Its about proving your point.

I’d say most games on this board are played without NA, So you have no IC in India at the start of the game. Therefore UK can’t hold India anyway most of the times it is left with 2 inf (an IC build by UK in India round 1 will be lost in J3). But the point is the Japan player in most cases has to many things to do for just one round (kill the dd in SZ 59, do hawai, do china, and other things depending on the UK move - maybe a UK trn in SZ 47 and recapture New Guinea or the english sub in SZ 46) so if you want to take out the UK fleet in SZ 34, sure you can, but you will miss these units at the other battles you have to take.

@Ranor:

an IC build by UK in India round 1 will be lost in J3

No. Here is the proof http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=11122.0

I managed keep India until the end. It was hard, I must say, stop the germans in east front.

Right, but that does look like a KJF game, at least from the first few turns and a US IC was added too.

Some of the early posts regarding vacating India are working on the assumption of a KGF.

As for the bid discussion, without a bid the Axis have absolutely no margin for error, and still they will lose waaaaay more games than the Allies.  I’d probably put it at 80-90% win for the Allies in a no-bid game.

The bid just make G1 a little more comfortable and gives you some more options on both G1 and G2.

It is probably safe to assume if you take Egy with 2 units or less, you’ll get countered there, and potentially 3 units or less with UK bringing down the bomber.

In this case India isn’t an issue since UK can still potentially counter on UK 2 with 2 inf and 1 bom.  Or you leave 1 inf behind forcing Japan to bring in 2 to attack, which weakens the assault on China.

Either way Germany is slowed in Afr early and Japan’s early inf are being nit-picked down so that they aren’t going to be a serious threat to Mos for several turns.  Which is all the Allies need to sink the Baltic fleet in Rd 2 and the Med fleet in rd 3 or 4.  After that, it is over, esp if Japan isn’t even seriously threatening Novo/Kaz with a big stack.

@Gerbilkit:

Um… I’m confused. How the hell are you stopping the Japanese from taking India round one if you’re pulling 2 infantry out, unless you have Colonial Garrison.

I ask at the risk of being obvious …

Were you playing 8 VC game?
If so, LHTR changed it to 9 VC.
So its ok to lose India to stop Germany getting Africa income.
Still an IPC win overall for Allies.