Nit picky German Economizer

The reason why I would drive my German tank to Arch is

1. If Russia kills it, Russian units use one extra turn to reach WRU or Cauc.
2. If UK kills it, they can’t both do this and take Norway, or attack Kalia.

I prefer to play aggressive when I feel strong.
Germany is stronger than Russia in the beginning of the game.
If you look at it this way, why should Germany attack Africa at all, allies will almost in every case take it
back….? But I usually try to get a hold in Africa, because axis must play aggressive in the beginning,
allies need only to keep what they have.

@Lucifer:

The reason why I would drive my German tank to Arch is

1. If Russia kills it, Russian units use one extra turn to reach WRU or Cauc.
2. If UK kills it, they can’t both do this and take Norway, or attack Kalia.

I prefer to play aggressive when I feel strong.
Germany is stronger than Russia in the beginning of the game.
If you look at it this way, why should Germany attack Africa at all, allies will almost in every case take it
back….? But I usually try to get a hold in Africa, because axis must play aggressive in the beginning,
allies need only to keep what they have.

These are the strategic/opportunistic factors.
Each move has a different value regarding to the strategy of the player.
Each move may be a great move or a lame one depending on the result achievable.
Economic analysis is only a factor, but it may not be totally ignored.

Generally it’s better to retreat units from TT’s if you know you can’t hold it, but not always.
Example: Jap has 30 tanks in Novo, Russia attacks with everything (cap is safe this rnd),
Russia is left with 5 units in Novo, Jap has 18 tanks in Sink, and 9 tanks in Kwang, Manch and Frindo.
Russia has 15 ipc, Jap has 45 ipc.
Japan usually lose more TUV in the Novo battle, but as Russia is very weak and Jap is very strong,
I would push every Jap units towards Moscow, regardless of bad TUV change,
Russia couldn’t handle the pressure for more than a couple of more rnds.

Now the German tank in Arch. is G1, but this is how I think and play, sometimes it works,
sometimes it doesn’t.
If I buy AC G1, then I would probably keep the tank, but then the strat is different.

I give up.  Strategy and simple arithmetic is beyond your current capabilities I guess.  Nothing wrong with you as a player, but I don’t think you are able to see the bigger picture of position + economics + statistical results.

I’ll just have to blitz you in our next games to drive the point home that it’s a good move for Germany and a bad move for Russia!

@Cmdr:

I give up.  ~~Strategy and simple arithmetic is beyond your current capabilities I guess.  Nothing wrong with you as a player, but I don’t think you are able to see the bigger picture of position + economics + statistical results.

I’ll just have to blitz you in our next games to drive the point home that it’s a good move for Germany and a bad move for Russia!~~

Victory, victory!

If you say so.  You can claim victory all the way up to the time Switch and/or I break your nation in half by blitzing Archangelsk as the first step to global domination.

@Cmdr:

If you say so.  You can claim victory all the way up to the time Switch and/or I break your nation in half by blitzing Archangelsk as the first step to global domination.

Hey switch, sounds like you’re jen’s b**ch.  Wazup?

Anyways, jen, YOU’RE the one that said you give up.  Too late now . . .

@Cmdr:

I give up.

@Cmdr:

I give up.

@Cmdr:

I give up.

@Cmdr:

I give up.

@Cmdr:

I give up.

So far, Switch and Jennifer have ignored my challenge. You guys be the axis, and I will leave Karelia and Archangel empty on R1, and you have to blitz to Archangel with your tank.

I’ll take you by myself or with trihero, NPB or DM or Gamer as a teammate, or whoever else has been arguing that the tank move to Arc is a bad one.

It’s time to represent!

@Cmdr:

If you say so.  You can claim victory all the way up to the time Switch and/or I break your nation in half by blitzing Archangelsk as the first step to global domination.

Imma gonna whip you like a red-headed stepchild!

It suprises me that someone actually believes that the tank blitz to Arch. is important.
A game to decide who is right???
You’re all arguing weather it’s 0.5, -1, -2 etc….
There are many more stupid or clever moves which will be done in any game, than the tank blitz to Arch.
Get real.

@Lucifer:

It suprises me that someone actually believes that the tank blitz to Arch. is important.
A game to decide who is right???
You’re all arguing weather it’s 0.5, -1, -2 etc….
There are many more stupid or clever moves which will be done in any game, than the tank blitz to Arch.
Get real.

Agreed.

It all boils down to a flip of the coin anyways… 50% it’s a good move (tank hits)
50% it’s a bad move (tank misses)

If I lose because of one tank hitting / missing…I might as well give up playing this whacky game.

Yes, I give up trying to impart wisdom and sanity upon the insane and unwise.

You are actually trying to say that it is more important for Germany to save 1 IPC when they can cost the Russians 1 IPC.  Let’s see, what is greater 1/40 or 1/24?

Which is of stronger use, 1 German Armor in E. Europe or 2 Russian Infantry in W. Russia?

Which is more valuable?  1 German Armor which can be lost three times over before actually starting to hamper the German economy on replacement units or 1 Russian Infantry that cannot be replaced without being a drain on their economy?

See why your petty little “well in this ONE extreme case scenario I am cherry picking out of 24 million possible games, your blitz is stupid” arguments don’t bear any weight with me?  You fail to consider opportunity cost, actual cost netted from BOTH sides and loss of opportunity cost of the enemy.

Hell, I can make the same argument!  Let’s just pretend that there is no England and Germany starts with all of Africa.  Isn’t it much better to move all your infantry out of Western Europe and attack Russia faster!?!  (Same argument, on a larger scale to show the ridiculousness of the arguments you seem to be proffering by cherry picking one situation, the worst possible one that’s got the worst odds of happening, as your main line of attack on an idea.)

@Cmdr:

Yes, I give up trying to impart wisdom and sanity upon the insane and unwise.

You are actually trying to say that it is more important for Germany to save 1 IPC when they can cost the Russians 1 IPC.  Let’s see, what is greater 1/40 or 1/24?

Which is of stronger use, 1 German Armor in E. Europe or 2 Russian Infantry in W. Russia?

Which is more valuable?  1 German Armor which can be lost three times over before actually starting to hamper the German economy on replacement units or 1 Russian Infantry that cannot be replaced without being a drain on their economy?

See why your petty little “well in this ONE extreme case scenario I am cherry picking out of 24 million possible games, your blitz is stupid” arguments don’t bear any weight with me?  You fail to consider opportunity cost, actual cost netted from BOTH sides and loss of opportunity cost of the enemy.

Hell, I can make the same argument!  Let’s just pretend that there is no England and Germany starts with all of Africa.  Isn’t it much better to move all your infantry out of Western Europe and attack Russia faster!?!  (Same argument, on a larger scale to show the ridiculousness of the arguments you seem to be proffering by cherry picking one situation, the worst possible one that’s got the worst odds of happening, as your main line of attack on an idea.)

Lol.  But that’s your USUAL argument, Jen!

MY wonderful shiny explanation INCLUDED economic AND opportunity cost.

Anyways, I don’t notice you offering to take up Ender (frood)'s challenge, Jen.

(makes chicken noises)

I challenged him too.  I don’t see him taking me up.  Guess his bluff has been called.

Observe:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=10332.0

Russia Round 1

Combat Move

Buy 3 inf, 3 arm

1. Wrus - 3 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm vs. 9 inf (3 kar, 3 arch, 3 mos), 2 rt (1 cauc, 1 mos), 2 arm (1 arch, 1 mos), 2 ftrs (1 kar, 1 mos)

Results

wrus - taken with 3 inf, 2 rt, 2 arm

Non-Combat Move

2 ftrs land in cauc
2 inf to wrus from cauc
2 inf to cauc from kaz
2 inf to mos from novo
2 inf to mos from eve
2 inf to novo from yak
2 inf to sfe from bury
2 inf to yak from sfe
1 arm to cauc from mos
1 sub to sz 2 from sz 4
1 aa to wrus from mos

Placement

3 inf, 1 arm on Cauc
2 arm on Mos

Collect 26

Germany 1:

(Sorely tempted to hit W. Russia, but I wont.)

Buy(40):

• 10 Infantry
• Fighter

Combat Moves:

Armor from E. Europe to Karelia - BLITZ Archangelsk

Russia Round 2

Buy 7 inf, 1 arm

Combat Move

1)  Ukr - 1 inf vs. 3 inf (cauc), 1 ftr (cauc)
2)  Belo - 1 inf vs. 2 inf (wrus), 1 ftr (cauc)
3)  Kar - 1 inf vs. 2 inf (wrus), 1 rt (wrus)
4)  Arch - 1 arm vs. 2 inf (mos), 3 arm (2 mos, 1 wrus)

Results

ukr - taken, wol
belo - taken, wol
kar - taken with 1 inf, 1 rt
arch - taken, wol

Non-Combat Move

2 ftrs land in cauc
1 sub to sz 8 from sz 2
1 aa to mos from wrus
2 inf to wrus from mos
2 inf to wrus from cauc
1 arm to cauc from wrus
2 inf to mos from novo
3 inf to novo from yak

Placement

4 inf on Cauc
3 inf, 1 arm on Mos

Collect 30

Comments:
No added risk to Russia, no forces were diverted away from Germany, infact as NPB and others point out you are allowed to use Russian troops in Moscow for an attack as they move to the front lines and you do not weaken any of your attacks.  You trade inf for Arm and in this case it was German armor for nothing.  Adv. Russia.

I have a follow up point as well.

Lets say you have a US armor in Moscow and both Novo and Sin are Japanese (but empty), and Japan has inf in Chi and arm in Fic etc.

Would you Blitz your US armor all the way to Sin?
No, of course not.

A couple of quick comments:

1.  Tri, you are mis-quoting me when you post

Even Switch has implicitly accepted this because the only argument he has left is “positioning.”

What I said was that the difference comes down to who you give ‘credit’ to for taking Karelia

2.  On Darth’s game post…
  A.  I have said previously that this move can be VERY effective combined with a German Karelia Stack, which did not happen in the game you posted.  If it had, the Archangel Counter that Russia executed would be a suicide move.
  B.  Yes, the ARM missed, that happens, and when it does, it is less effective move.
  C.  Russia should likely lose 6 INF, 1 ART on the German counter.

3.  As for the Sinkiang blitz… I might… depends on the rest of the game board.  :evil:

Back when I was still attacking Ukr…   :wink:

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=9354.0